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68fastback
10-01-2010, 05:15 PM
I posted this item not for the summary below but for the summary in the media release ("more...") below.

Though only high-level statements, Ford's assessment of bio fuels from algae is the most honest and straight-down-the-middle summary I've seen on this subject in some time.

To sum: algae has great potential; commercial-scale production/sustainability and economics still challenging.

Here's the Ford Media summary:
FORD SCIENTISTS LOOK TO ALGAE AS POTENTIAL BIOFUEL

DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 1, 2010 – Ford scientists are working to understand the suitability of renewable sources such as algae as potential automotive biofuels. This effort is an integral part of Ford’s desire to better understand the use of biomass to produce future biofuels as part of an overall strategy to reduce the nation’s dependence on foreign oil and address climate change.

“Ford has a long history of developing vehicles that run on renewable fuels; and the increased use of biofuels is an important element of our sustainability strategy now and moving forward,” said Tim Wallington, technical leader with the Ford Systems Analytics and Environmental Sciences Department. “We look ahead from a technological, economic, environmental, and social standpoint at potential next-generation renewable fuels that could power our vehicles.”

Click-thru to media release: more... (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=33338)

click-thru to Ford 2009/10 Sustainability report(s) (http://www.ford.com/about-ford/company-information/corporate-sustainability)

Joe G
10-01-2010, 07:02 PM
Isn't that the stuff that Monkey is growing on his battery terminals? :look:






http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc289/JoeG_09/Shelbyfest%202010/DSC02796.jpg

Little Debbie
10-01-2010, 07:19 PM
Much of the research thus far for algae as a biofuel has come from ASU Polytechnic. They've been doing some great research out there for about 25 years wrt biofuels, and more recently, fuel cells. They've oddly been funded by BP at one point. Just in July, they were awarded another $6M from the DOE and the other day another $2M from AZ so that ASU can build a separate center for continuation of their research on a larger scale.

http://biofuels.asu.edu/biomaterials.shtml

http://larb.asu.edu/


Here's an interesting video:


http://asunews.asu.edu/video_20100922_algaeresearch

68fastback
10-01-2010, 08:21 PM
Interesting stuff!

For it to become competitive on a commercial scale with a fairly linear supply and at competitive cost I think the ability to develop a continuous production process will be the key. Large-scale batching might do it, but I think the holy grail will be a continuous production process that doesn't quickly become contaminated or dysfunctional in some unaccceptable way.

Boston Mike
10-01-2010, 09:29 PM
So what this is saying is if I stop cleaning my pool, I can start producing fuel for the next generation automobile? Genious.

Joe G
10-01-2010, 09:32 PM
So what this is saying is if I stop cleaning my pool, I can start producing fuel for the next generation automobile? Genious.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Kjf7tf_5PRs/StvjzIqKydI/AAAAAAAAGN0/WCoGAEz682w/s400/guinness-brilliant-1-TAGGED-2.bmp

Little Debbie
10-01-2010, 10:42 PM
Interesting stuff!

For it to become competitive on a commercial scale with a fairly linear supply and at competitive cost I think the ability to develop a continuous production process will be the key. Large-scale batching might do it, but I think the holy grail will be a continuous production process that doesn't quickly become contaminated or dysfunctional in some unaccceptable way.

The Ford News made me immediately think that at the very least, they could build/borrow from what's already been laid as groundwork over the years. At best, they could have a collaborative effort in moving forward with the R&D and bring it to fruition. Large scale production at the moment is the limiting factor, and grant monies only go but so far. Corporate backing could do the trick to make it reality. Very exciting stuff to say the least.

68fastback
10-02-2010, 05:31 AM
The Ford News made me immediately think that at the very least, they could build/borrow from what's already been laid as groundwork over the years. At best, they could have a collaborative effort in moving forward with the R&D and bring it to fruition. Large scale production at the moment is the limiting factor, and grant monies only go but so far. Corporate backing could do the trick to make it reality. Very exciting stuff to say the least.

Exciting for sure! I've read that there are also genetically engineered bacteria that can already produce fuels directly as byproducts: diesel, jetfuel (K1 kerosene) and (potentially) gasoline. Unfortinately, that's in order of difficulty to sustain too (diesel being the easiest) and even those bacteria are extremely difficult to keep alive -- even on a small scale in the lab. Gasoline will be challenge to not have the fuel exterminate the bacteria, since a single-generation cycle is not sustainable. Nevertheless, my gut tells me this is the future of sustainable biofuels -- at least for diesel -- though I think it's still at least a generation away in a practical/scale sense. But the payback is potentially enormous!! As the video mentioned, algae are about 10-fold more photo/bio-efficient than terrestrial 'farming.'

It's possible that the biggest effect of all the climate-change 'scare' tactics (whether real or not and to whatever extent) might actually have as it's most important effect on mankind the stimulation of alternative fuels R&D -- work that has historically languished. A potential really large-scale "thanks-I-needed-that" moment in the making?

Little Debbie
10-02-2010, 02:29 PM
Exciting for sure! I've read that there are also genetically engineered bacteria that can already produce fuels directly as byproducts: diesel, jetfuel (K1 kerosene) and (potentially) gasoline. Unfortinately, that's in order of difficulty to sustain too (diesel being the easiest) and even those bacteria are extremely difficult to keep alive -- even on a small scale in the lab. Gasoline will be challenge to not have the fuel exterminate the bacteria, since a single-generation cycle is not sustainable. Nevertheless, my gut tells me this is the future of sustainable biofuels -- at least for diesel -- though I think it's still at least a generation away in a practical/scale sense. But the payback is potentially enormous!! As the video mentioned, algae are about 10-fold more photo/bio-efficient than terrestrial 'farming.'

It's possible that the biggest effect of all the climate-change 'scare' tactics (whether real or not and to whatever extent) might actually have as it's most important effect on mankind the stimulation of alternative fuels R&D -- work that has historically languished. A potential really large-scale "thanks-I-needed-that" moment in the making?

In order to get the genetically modified bacteria to the end result they desire (more fuel), they will have to study quite a bit in order to get it right. Genetically modified bacteria do not behave as your typical bacteria (of course, but also, depending on what you've done to them as well). Apparently, the growth curve needs to be optimized, and in order to do this, a lot of factors come into play. Temperature, O2 and CO2 levels, media selection/type and amount, media replacement and replenishment, etc., all effect how the little buggers grow. And being that the desired product is their waste product, to have them wallow in it is not optimal for their survival. It would even throw off the O2 levels that they may need in order to survive, aside from poisoning them. And if one tries to grow too many, the exponential growth will also overcrowd the little guys and there won't be enough nourishment to go around to sustain them, either. It is very much like cell culture. Timing of all components is everything, and there are many variables. And let's not forget that bacteria can also mutate over time.

That being said, the algal studies definitely are very promising in comparison for the near future. It's so simplistic and elegant...and easily sustained. But can we make enough? And can a chemically "similar" structure not give us an undesirable end product from combustion? Will engines need modified in some way to utilize it to its potential? Maybe Ford can answer these questions...

68fastback
10-02-2010, 06:16 PM
In order to get the genetically modified bacteria to the end result they desire (more fuel), they will have to study quite a bit in order to get it right. Genetically modified bacteria do not behave as your typical bacteria (of course, but also, depending on what you've done to them as well). Apparently, the growth curve needs to be optimized, and in order to do this, a lot of factors come into play. Temperature, O2 and CO2 levels, media selection/type and amount, media replacement and replenishment, etc., all effect how the little buggers grow. And being that the desired product is their waste product, to have them wallow in it is not optimal for their survival. It would even throw off the O2 levels that they may need in order to survive, aside from poisoning them. And if one tries to grow too many, the exponential growth will also overcrowd the little guys and there won't be enough nourishment to go around to sustain them, either. It is very much like cell culture. Timing of all components is everything, and there are many variables. And let's not forget that bacteria can also mutate over time.

That being said, the algal studies definitely are very promising in comparison for the near future. It's so simplistic and elegant...and easily sustained. But can we make enough? And can a chemically "similar" structure not give us an undesirable end product from combustion? Will engines need modified in some way to utilize it to its potential? Maybe Ford can answer these questions...

Yup, that's consistent with what I've read on this -- simplistic and elegant in concept, but potentially daunting to bring to commercialation scale. On ething it does have that some alternatives don't is the ability to do it regionally. Oil and coal are where they are, but this can be where it's needed ...so to speak.

---

I suspect Ford's interest at this point would be more about understanding when a new bullet might be loadable -- when it may become scale-real and how it might affect their long-term direction and R&D balance more than looking to fund it since any new technology is potentially a two edged sword of both opportunity and expense and any new technology at any point in it's development is necessarily competing, both for funding in it's early stages and acceptance as it shows scale potential, and that's both a competitive and interacive business process at both a corporate and a broader industry level as well.

I see in Ford's '09/'10 Sustinability Report that hydrogen is still at the right-edge of the timeline. When all the hydrogen talk began Ford was quick to prove it could realtively easily modify its engines and calibration to 'burn' hydrogen directly as fuel and onc ethat was proven I noticed that the more intense work with Ballard and others on fuel cells seemed to resume a more relaxed pace since (my assessment) is that since an IC engine that burns H2 will be far cheaper than a fuell-cell for a very long time, tey could rebalance R&D efforts accordingly. And even if a direct photosynthetic process to produce cheap hydrogen were to rapidly (realtively) emerge, they are covered.

This essential corporate 'investment' balancing is both affected by these emerging technogies but also (collectively, as an industry) can affect what technologies become commercialized. That's why energy/fuel basic R&D is one of those few things I feel is worthy of taxpayer funding. I say *basic* R&D because I don't want to see government artificially steer or 'handicap' (plus or minus) technologies for political reasons yet, on the other hand, there's often little motivation in business to invest in such basic R&D when the potential payoff is likely to be measured in decades.

I suspect that where the algae biofuels fit in that 'dance' of R&D, politics, commercialization-potential and downstream business pragmatics is still quite murky (at least to me -lol), but my sense is that it will at least have the attention of companies like Ford both because it's 'green' (no pun intended) and because they may sense it has genuine breakthrough potential ...but that's just my speculation. Would they spend a lot on funding it directly? Since it's largely a substitute-fuel technology with realtively minimal impact on vehicle propulsion systems, beyond understanding the status of the technology and developing potential relationships, I think they would not. Actually I think they'd look to DOE to fund *them* to experiment with biofuels if/when their characteristics become better understood.

In any event will be interesting to watch how the auto industry manages their end of the technology-commercialization dance with maximum competitiveness grace and minimum disruption balance ...on a world stage.