Thoughts on Trans gearing....

[Tommy Gun]

What I have is a 2002 4.6L currently w/ 354rwhp/350rwtq 3.77:1 diff gears and a TR-3650 trans w/ these gears...

1st: 3.380:1
2nd: 2.000:1
3rd: 1.320:1
4th: 1.000:1
5th: 0.670:1


At the track I run out of gear at the top of 4th gear at 6000-6200rpm. Shifting into 5th is basically worthless (I guess because of the gearing)

Looking for an upgrade and hoping for some info before I call transmission places so I don't look too dumb. :shades: LOL


I'm looking at 5 spds and 6 spds to replace what I have. Wondering what gear set-up would work best at the track?

......................

5 Speed

I can get a Tremec TKO 600 Ford Road Race overdrive (TCET4617)
Transmission w/ ....


2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82
......................
6 Speed

I can get a built T56 Magnum trans w/

2.97 (or 2.66), 2.10, 1.46, 1.00, .74, .50
......................

6 Speed

I can get a T56 Viper trans w/

2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.00, .74, .50 (opt. .80, .62 )
......................


Or I can have my TR3650 built w/ 2.97, 2.10, 1.46, 1:1, .74, .50 gears?


I'm guessing I want the highest 5th gear number I can get?

.

[68fastback]

I like the nice close ratios of the TKO 600. 4 spd + single OD
2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82

I don't like the ratio on building your 3650 ...to much spacing, imo, in 2nd=>3rd and 3rd=>4th

Or you might go to the new Getrag in MGT and BOSS -- 5th is 1.00 so the ratios can be closer (one extra gear below 1.00) but I think you'll still want the 3.55 bump to carry a bit more speed in whatever gear is 1.00 since you're running out of rpm.

This is the ratio of the Getrag 6-spd in the MGT and BOSS. 5 spd + single OD ...nice road ratios.
3.66 2.43 1.69 1.32 1.00 0.65


Btw, notice the '11 GT500 is identical ratios to the Viper T56 you showed except 1st -- but it's still a 4spd + double OD, not ideal for road course
2.97 1.78 1.30 1.00 0.74 0.50

[Tommy Gun]

I like the nice close ratios of the TKO 600. 4 spd + single OD
2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82

I don't like the ratio on building your 3650 ...to much spacing, imo, in 2nd=>3rd and 3rd=>4th

Or you might go to the new Getrag in MGT and BOSS -- 5th is 1.00 so the ratios can be closer (one extra gear below 1.00) but I think you'll still want the 3.55 bump to carry a bit more speed in whatever gear is 1.00 since you're running out of rpm.

This is the ratio of the Getrag 6-spd in the MGT and BOSS. 5 spd + single OD ...nice road ratios.
3.66 2.43 1.69 1.32 1.00 0.65


Btw, notice the '11 GT500 is identical ratios to the Viper T56 you showed except 1st -- but it's still a 4spd + double OD, not ideal for road course
2.97 1.78 1.30 1.00 0.74 0.50


Thanks.

Being a new trans in the Mustangs, the Getrag sounds pricey and I don't know what beef it has if it's new (problems etc.)

Does the 3.77 gears really look like a problem? If I change that then I definitely need more 1st gear so it will get out of it's own way.

This can get confusing. :banghead:


One guy at the track had a 4.6L w/ 3.77 gears and a TKO trans and his was doing what mines doing, so not sure that is an option or not. But, I'm not sure what 5th gear his had since they come w/ a couple different ones.

.

.

[68fastback]

it's two different problems. One is running out of rpm down the straights. The 3.55 will give you up to about 5% more to play with (assuming you have the power to use it). The other is tranny gear spacing. The TKO in high gear will run out of rpm in exactly the same place any other tranny will in high gear (1.00). But the MGT/BOSS tranny has more gears prior to hi (1.00) which permits narrower hear spacing, which permits you to keep in the power-band more easily -- more flexibility when driving to put more power to the ground more of the time.

Bill, here's what I posted up in your other thread (probably belongs here anyway) ...the final drive ratio in high (1.00) and tranny gear *spacing* are two distinct considerations, both of which need to be addressed. Diff ratio addresses the particular track. Tranny spacing addresses the characteristics of your engine's set-up. See of this helps:

...possibly will affect that [where your used to shifting in turns] a little -- but 3.55s are only about 5% different than 3.73s so if you're downshifting to come out of a corner at 4800 rpm or (??), it would push your revs down to a few under 4570 or so ...not a big diff. ...but it will also only reduce rpm down the straight about 5% too, so where you were seeing 6000 you'd see about 5700, and where you saw 6200 you'd see about 5900 ....potentially letting you pull up to 5% more speed. All depends on where the center of your power-band is and how wide it is. This will also help determine best tranny gearing. Do you have a dyno chart on the track turd as it is today with the procharger, etc? Assuming 'normal' curves, the band is generally considered to run from peak torque to peak power. Any idea what that rpm range is? For example if it's from 4800-6000, that's a 20% band, so a tranny with a greater gear-to-gear spread will be suboptimal. You want the tranny gear spacing to never push you out of the power band so you have the most area under the curves (tq and HP) working for you in every gear (except maybe 1st and OD which aren't really used). This is why a 6 speed with a 5th gear of 1.00 is so usefull (as in MGT/BOSS) -- it permits a nice narrow spacing due to the extra under-1.00 gear -- to exploit the power band more effectively since you don't have to be as accurate because the PB is then wider than the gear spacing ...if you see what I mean.

[Tommy Gun]

I got the first parts of what you are saying.

Matching up the rpms to the tranny gets confusing for me.

Here are some dyno shots if they work.


Also, you keep mentioning the new GT tranny, that will probably be out of my reach for a long time and my trans uses a cable, the new ones have hydraulic slave cylinders.


I need to stick to one of the T56's, TR 3650 or TKO's.

.326432653266

[Tommy Gun]

I emailed a couple vendors about my car.

Here is the first response back.

I don't like that this guy jumped to the most expensive thing he has on his shelf w/o giving me other options.

I don't need to deal w/ people like that.


My email

"I'm looking at options to upgrade from a stock TR3650 to a T 56 or T56 Magnum or ? I have a 2002 Mustang GT, 4.6L, 354rwhp/350rwtq (possible power increase in the future up to 450 rwhp/tq). Rear suspension is torque arm/panhard/coil overs. Front is aftermarket K member/arms/coil overs. Diff is 3.77:1. Currently I run out of gear at the top of 4th gear at 6000-6200 rpms. Stock 5th gear is sorta useless. LOL"

His response

" LOOK AT MY MAGNUM TZ HERE ARE THE RATIO'S WE CAN PLUG AND PLAY TO BOTH CARS

WE BUILD A TRANZILLA MAGNUM STYLE
RATED AT 850FTLBS
RACE READY WITH CARBON RINGS 1-4 BLUE PRINTED THIS TRANS HAS MAJOR UPGRADES FROM THE T56 (NO SYNCHRO KEYS) WIDER GEAR TRAIN LARGER 3/4 CARBON RINGS.
BELLHOUSING SFI STEEL 495.00 TO 1299.00
QUICK RELEASE SLAVE 349.00
31 SPLINE REAR YOKE 169.72
RSG OIL 5QTS 10.55 PER QT WE MAKE OUR OWN OIL
SINGLE DISC CLUTCH WITH FLYWHEEL 585.00 - 700.00 EST
TWIN DISC WITH FLYWHEEL 1274.00 - 1365.00 EST
RATIO'S
2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .74 .50 OR .80 .63
2.97 2.07 1.43 1.00 .74 .50 OR .80 .63
THESE COST 3495.00
CLOSE RATIO
2.29 1.60 1.21 1.00 .84 .67
COST 3995.00"


.

[68fastback]

Har to tell from the pics of the charts what the rpm lines are but it *looks* (given the 5252 Tq/HP crossover) like peak torque starts about 4200 and peak power turns down at about 5700 -- a 26% rpm spread, i.e. the difference between the two is 26% of the larger number (peak HP) or if you shifted at 5700 (peak HP) to the next gear and rpm dropped 26% you'd be at peak Tq.

Applying that to the various transmissions:

The 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 presents rpm drop %s of: 33% 27% and 23% -- not a bad match assuming you don't downshift to 1st in turns (i.e. ignore the 33%) and you don't drop below 4200 or so in second in the slowest turn.

The close ratio 2.29 1.60 1.21 1.0 presents rpm drop %s of: 30% 24% and 17% -- much better match but because of the bery high first gear (low numerical 2.29) you might have to use 1st in very slow turns with this tranny, but it will get more power to the ground and give you more shifting flexibility, imo.

The MGT/BOSS which gives you 5 gears looks like: 3.66 2.43 1.69 1.32 1.0 provides spreads of 34% 30% 22% 24% -- three nice spreads and a big first gear (for launching, but not likely used on track given 2.43 second ...compare to close ratio above).

I'm only mentioning the MGT tranny since it's unique in that 5th gear is 1.0, not 4th like the others -- so you can see why it matters. Undoubtedly this was done for the MGT/BOSS for good street launch (big 1st) and nice close ratios thru 5th -- especially the very tight 3rd (1.69) to 4th(1.32) at 22%. It's like having the above close-ratio tranny with a real 1st gear added-on for the street. I'm sure that was no accident -- mated up to a hig-revving NA motor close ratios give great flexibility.

Whichever tranny fits the motor best, for VIR it sounds like you may still need the 3.55s *except* if you went with the close ratio since it's the only one with a real tight 4th (1.0) to OD (.84) only a 16% spread. So if you need 16% more down the straigts and can carry it!), the close ration with the 3.73s might work well. But if you only need 5% more (much easier for the motor to carry if it's enough down the straight) then the close ratio or the MGT seems the best match. I realize price is a whole 'nother question, but the best ratios is independent of price, so just trying to help you size-up the alternatives but only you can decide what fits the budget.

The BOSS has a huge power band (I'd guess from 4500 to over 7200 (at least 38% spread) so you can see why the tranny they picked is ideal. For your narrow-band procharger set-up, the close-ratio tranny and either using OD with the 3.73s or not using OD with the 3.55s might be a slightly better choice. Hard to guess andy better without knowing real rpm range on your charts and exactly what additional speed your engine might be capable of carrying if it wasn't running out of gears/rpm down the straight. However, the difference between 3.73s and using the close-ratio's OD vs 3.55s and not using it is +16% for the former and +5% for the latter ...which is better for VIR will depend how close to the end of the straight you were peaking with the 3.73s.

For the 16% to be a better solution (keep the 3.73s and go with the close-ratio) you'd have to be able to use that extra 16% down the straight -- seems unlikely?? -- unless you were peaked-out very early down the straight. And gut feel for where you were peaking out -- that's the critical variable, imo, because it would be very hard to assimilate all 16% difference of the close-ratio's OD gear unles you were peaking fairly far from the end of the straight or can turn up the boost to take advantage of 16% ...if you see what I mean.

Sorry for long post and repeating myself ...hard to do in words -lol.

[Tommy Gun]

I'll read more into this when I get home, but as far as how close to the end of the straights...


I'm hitting 6000-6200 rpm in 4th at about 120 mph. I should be hitting 130 w/ this car. I have (guessing) another 600-700 feet of full throttle before braking.


I have never used first gear in any corner, usually 2nd, sometimes 3rd for longer sweeping corners.

I'll get a better pic of the dyno w/ rpm's written out.

.

[68fastback]

Hmmmm... so 5% (3.55s) would take you to 126 or so (just based on revs and assuming power to do it) and 16% (close-ratio tranny with smallest OD) would take you to 139 (same assumptions). I doubt you'll carry 139, so might be best to not use OD and go with 3.55 with close ratio trans (or the MGT trans) ...especially since you're not using higher numerical ratios at all and it's not street car needing a high numerical first gear.

Maybe it can be graphed-out ...using the rpm/curve spreads from the dyno chart.

[Tommy Gun]

(close-ratio tranny with smallest OD)

You mean like .82 ?


W/ 3.55's and a first gear higher than what I have like 2.66 my first gear would then be a slug right? Big loss of power?

.

[68fastback]

yes on both (.82 and even a bit slower in 1st with 3.55). If you dont' want to give up the big 1st gear grunt, then the MGT/BOSS MT82 Ford-Getrag tranny essentially *adds* another 1st gear (since 5th is 1:1, not 4th) at the bottom with that big 3.66 1st ...but it's 2 -> 5 spacing, while close, is not as close as the close ratio tranny.

If your peak torque to peak HP band will handle the spreads, the MGT tranny has a lot going for it (and you still have a true-OD 6th if you need it on the street -lol- it's a .66!). Can't be nearly as expensive as a T56/6060, I think. It also is supposedly a very efficient mechanical design, especially in 5th (1:1), but it's new. Still, there are several MGTs pounding them well down in the 10s and the MT82s are holding up well so far. Also dunno if it will mate up to your 2V GT.

Anyhow, just some thoughts.

[Tommy Gun]

Also like I said my trans has a cable, it's not hydraulic.

I'm sure the new Mustang is like my GT500 where the fluid comes from the brake master cyl.

No way I know how to get all that working.

And the bellhousing to 2V problem. Some of the trans I'm looking at come w/ a special BH to fit my motor.
.

[68fastback]

The MT82 has been around for a while (Land Rover Defender since '08?) and the lighter duty LT75 has been around longer so maybe there are parts avaliable for cable set-ups? Dunno. I did some searches and found some discussion on this for the MT75 and MT82 for other cars but no info specifically on adapting/parts for cable use. I did find one guy who suggested using a standard hydraulic clutch pedal conversion who said that might be easier than converting an MT82 to cable but haven't found anyone who's actually done it. I'll keep an eye out (lol).

It might be much easier to go with the close-ratio, see if the .84OD 5th works for you and, if not, swapp for 3.55s and don't use OD, but it's low-numerical 1st will be slow -- probably not a big deal for the track car, right? (you don't do any LeMans starts do you? :giggle: :hide:)

[Tommy Gun]

http://www.americanpowertrain.com/clutch-hydraulic.html



Just for my info...
TKO 600 Ford Road Race
2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82

T-56 Magnum 6 Speed Transmissions
2.97, 2.10, 1.46, 1.00, .74, .50

[Tommy Gun]

Looks like I may head toward the TKO-600 w/ 2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82


What am I looking at by going from a 3.38 ? first to a 2.87 first ?


Like going from a 3.77 diff gear to a 3.05 diff gear? Pretty major?

[Carnut]

I'm wondering why you are topping out a 6000-6200 rpm. Is this an electronic limit or the engine running out of breath? What I am getting at is, is your engine capable of more rpm (from a power and durability standpoint) and if it is just an electronic limit, can you raise it another 500 or so rpm.

Sorry for jumping in on this but the thought occured to me that this might be a possibilty.

[Matthew]

That's the first thing that struck me about this thread too. If your complaint is that you are running out of RPM at the top of the straights with your current setup, but are only running 6000-6200 RPM, the first thing you should look at is increasing your RPM. You can run a modular up around 7000 RPM without any particularly exotic parts. I couldn't find a vehicle profile for your car (though I only spent a little time looking) so I can't comment on your parts choices, but I personally have an 02 2V car that I run up to 6800 RPM on the drag strip, and I know lots of guys running road race cars like this at around 7000 RPM. The biggest weakness is the factory oil pump drive, which I assume you have already replaced. Maybe if you just rev it up a little bit more, you won't need a gearing change at all.

Next, I have never heard of a 3.77 ratio for a Ford 8.8, so I am assuming that you mean a 3.73 ratio. If someone actually makes a 3.77 ratio for this rear end, can you please provide a reference to it.

As for the transmission, I see a lot of discussion in this thread about first gear, but if this is a road race car, who cares about first gear? The issue at hand apparantly is running out of gear at the top of the straights in fourth and an unusable 5th which means a reduction in total gear multiplication from your current 4th combination but not as dramatic as your current 5th combination is in order. The usual solution to this is a road race style overdrive like the .82 offered in the TKO 600, which I see is where you are headed. Another step you could consider is going with a .82 overdrive in conjunction with a shorter final drive like 3.90. Looking at your total gear multiplication in the top usable gear, with your T3650 and 3.73 final drive your top usable gear is 4th which is 1x3.73 (3.73 total) and 5th is not usable with .68x3.73 (2.5364 total). If you went to a .82 overdrive TKO 600 then your top usuable gear would be .82x3.373 (3.0586 total). If you turned the rear end up to 3.90, then this is .82x3.90 (3.198) or if you went to 4.10 it would be .82x4.10 (3.362 total).

Honestly, if you went to 4.10's and a .82 OD TKO 600, your first gear total multiplication would change from 12.49 to 11.77 which isn't actually that much, and your top gear multiplication would drop from 3.73 to 3.362, assuming you can only run in 4th with the current setup. That is probably a lot more like what you want.

-Matthew

[Tommy Gun]

I'm wondering why you are topping out a 6000-6200 rpm. Is this an electronic limit or the engine running out of breath? What I am getting at is, is your engine capable of more rpm (from a power and durability standpoint) and if it is just an electronic limit, can you raise it another 500 or so rpm.

Sorry for jumping in on this but the thought occured to me that this might be a possibilty.

Explanation of running out :shades:

I have a 4.6L 2V stock motor w/ a Procharger w/ 8-10Lbs of boost.

At 6000 rpm's it sounds like it's about to blow up??

I don't know the safe limit for a 2V stock motor w/ boost?

I don't want to blow the motor if possible.

I have a ton to go if it is safe, I just don't know?


The GT500 limit is 6250, but many have push way passed that, but for how long?

What can a 2V 4.6 take?

.

[Tommy Gun]

That's the first thing that struck me about this thread too. If your complaint is that you are running out of RPM at the top of the straights with your current setup, but are only running 6000-6200 RPM, the first thing you should look at is increasing your RPM. You can run a modular up around 7000 RPM without any particularly exotic parts. I couldn't find a vehicle profile for your car (though I only spent a little time looking) so I can't comment on your parts choices, but I personally have an 02 2V car that I run up to 6800 RPM on the drag strip, and I know lots of guys running road race cars like this at around 7000 RPM. The biggest weakness is the factory oil pump drive, which I assume you have already replaced. Maybe if you just rev it up a little bit more, you won't need a gearing change at all.

Next, I have never heard of a 3.77 ratio for a Ford 8.8, so I am assuming that you mean a 3.73 ratio. If someone actually makes a 3.77 ratio for this rear end, can you please provide a reference to it.

As for the transmission, I see a lot of discussion in this thread about first gear, but if this is a road race car, who cares about first gear? The issue at hand apparantly is running out of gear at the top of the straights in fourth and an unusable 5th which means a reduction in total gear multiplication from your current 4th combination but not as dramatic as your current 5th combination is in order. The usual solution to this is a road race style overdrive like the .82 offered in the TKO 600, which I see is where you are headed. Another step you could consider is going with a .82 overdrive in conjunction with a shorter final drive like 3.90. Looking at your total gear multiplication in the top usable gear, with your T3650 and 3.73 final drive your top usable gear is 4th which is 1x3.73 (3.73 total) and 5th is not usable with .68x3.73 (2.5364 total). If you went to a .82 overdrive TKO 600 then your top usuable gear would be .82x3.373 (3.0586 total). If you turned the rear end up to 3.90, then this is .82x3.90 (3.198) or if you went to 4.10 it would be .82x4.10 (3.362 total).

Honestly, if you went to 4.10's and a .82 OD TKO 600, your first gear total multiplication would change from 12.49 to 11.77 which isn't actually that much, and your top gear multiplication would drop from 3.73 to 3.362, assuming you can only run in 4th with the current setup. That is probably a lot more like what you want.

-Matthew


Does your 2V have a supercharger on it?

I'm afraid w/ the boost that something will go wrong at higher RPM's?


You're correct on the 3.77 :banghead:

I meant 3.73.

I have not replaced any oil pump drive? What would you recommend? Not even sure what you're talking about. LOL


You lost me at the end stuff, I'll have to re-read that several times to understand it. LOL

.

[68fastback]

I think 6000-6200 is all you want to go on a 2002 2V ...esp since you're making a lot more power than stock. Dunno redline but I think factory rating was somthing like 255-260HP at 5200 and about 300 ft# at 4000 so by 6000 it prolly just noses over and won't pull -- air-drag ~ rwHP. Maybe the close-ratio tranny with 16% OD (.84) will let you get closer to peak power band and actually pull the end-straight better. Maybe the 3.55s won't be enough ...they can always be swapped later if needed. Sounds like the procharger shifted the peak-peak band a bit higher (from the dyno chart) but didn't widen it any (still about 1200 rpm) -- makes sense since that's largely the cam, I think. If it's feeling like it's hitting the wall at 6000, that's all it's got.

[Tommy Gun]

I think 6000-6200 is all you want to go on a 2002 2V ...esp since you're making a lot more power than stock. Dunno redline but I think factory rating was somthing like 255-260HP at 5200 and about 300 ft# at 4000 so by 6000 it prolly just noses over and won't pull -- air-drag ~ rwHP. Maybe the close-ratio tranny with 16% OD (.84) will let you get closer to peak power band and actually pull the end-straight better. Maybe the 3.55s won't be enough ...they can always be swapped later if needed. Sounds like the procharger shifted the peak-peak band a bit higher (from the dyno chart) but didn't widen it any (still about 1200 rpm) -- makes sense since that's largely the cam, I think. If it's feeling like it's hitting the wall at 6000, that's all it's got.


It is not hitting the wall at 6000. It has plenty to go.

That is just where I personally have tried not to push over that rpm in fear of a small explosion a couple feet in front of me at 120 mph. :surprised:


.

[Matthew]

Do you have a parts list on this car somewhere that I can take a look at?

Here's an example page from the Sean Hyland Book "How To Build Max Performance 4.6-Liter Ford Engines", which is still the best book out there on the subject regardless of what you think of Sean Hyland. Maybe this will give you a little overview of the oil pump problems that are typical in high RPM and road raced modulars. http://www.mre-books.com/sa82/sa82_11.html

I'm always a little worried about these stock bottom 2V cars with superchargers and especially in a road race scenario and had assumed that you were running a built NA motor instead so that is my fault. Under these circumstances it is probably reasonable to keep the revs down in the range you are running, and in that case you should be looking at the combination of transmission and final drive gearing to get rid of your straightaway limitation.

As for the GT500's, I normally like to see those cars run to about 6500 RPM, but I have customers running them up to around 6800 RPM on the drag strip with lots of modifications and they are staying together. I run my own Kenne Bell Terminator up as high as 7000 RPM on both the drag strip and road course. The modulars can take quite a bit of RPM and hang together, but of course it is always safer to keep the revs down. If you want to win some races though, you just have to rev them up!

Incidentally, I run my pushrod fox up to 8800 RPM, so I am kind of biased to higher RPM applications I guess!

Oh, and to answer your question, my 2V car is NA - heads, cams, intake (P-51), headers, exhaust, gears etc.

-Matthew

[Tommy Gun]

Thanks for the info.


My motor is stock except for bolt ons.

Procharger D-1SC (yes the big one capable of 1000+ HP :lol: I got a deal) running at 8-10 psi
BBK headers
High flow cats
Steeda pulleys
Homemade CAI LOL
Intercooler (air to air)
Pro products 70mm TB

I think that is it?
350 rwhp/tq plus/minus


So maybe something w/ a .82 5th gear and drop down to 3.55 gears?

Maybe I'll do the gears first and see how it does.


Also, I just do this for fun. I don't use it for any races, just HPDE events for fun.

I don't plan on ever doing it in a race type situation, been there done that years ago.

.

[Tommy Gun]

I take it that I should at least upgrade to the Cobra oil pump in my car.


I'll ask my mechanic tomorrow how much to do a job like that. Sounds expensive.

.

[68fastback]

Explanation of running out :shades:

I have a 4.6L 2V stock motor w/ a Procharger w/ 8-10Lbs of boost.

At 6000 rpm's it sounds like it's about to blow up??

I don't know the safe limit for a 2V stock motor w/ boost?

I don't want to blow the motor if possible.

I have a ton to go if it is safe, I just don't know?


The GT500 limit is 6250, but many have push way passed that, but for how long?

What can a 2V 4.6 take?

.


It is not hitting the wall at 6000. It has plenty to go.

That is just where I personally have tried not to push over that rpm in fear of a small explosion a couple feet in front of me at 120 mph. :surprised:


.

:hey2: ...make up your mind :boink:

:rofl:

[Carnut]

Since you are just doing it for fun, it sounds like going to the 3.55's make more sense; especially since it the least expensive way to go and keep it at under 6200.

[68fastback]

+1

...and if that doesn't help enough, a close-ratio trans that can better target the power band would be helpfull, but pricey.

[Tommy Gun]

:hey2: ...make up your mind :boink:

:rofl:


Re-phrase: At 6000 rpm it sounds like it's about to blow up, but there's plenty of throttle to go. :wtg:


How's that? :trouble:



Now about those gears.....I haven't been able to contact my gear guy in a couple months now :nonono: No one has heard from him.

.

[Tommy Gun]

No. :boink:



He's a local guy that has done many many gear changes for Mustang owners.

It's just a side job for him, but he's really good at it.


I could probably do it since I have time.

I would need to do some research since I haven't done one in a while.

I have done Dana 44's, Dana 30's and Jeep Model 20's and never had an issue on or off road.

I guess I could do a Ford 8.8. :grin:

.

[Alloy Dave]

What I have is a 2002 4.6L currently w/ 354rwhp/350rwtq 3.77:1 diff gears and a TR-3650 trans w/ these gears...

1st: 3.380:1
2nd: 2.000:1
3rd: 1.320:1
4th: 1.000:1
5th: 0.670:1


At the track I run out of gear at the top of 4th gear at 6000-6200rpm. Shifting into 5th is basically worthless (I guess because of the gearing)

Looking for an upgrade and hoping for some info before I call transmission places so I don't look too dumb. :shades: LOL


I'm looking at 5 spds and 6 spds to replace what I have. Wondering what gear set-up would work best at the track?

......................

5 Speed

I can get a Tremec TKO 600 Ford Road Race overdrive (TCET4617)
Transmission w/ ....


2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82
......................
6 Speed

I can get a built T56 Magnum trans w/

2.97 (or 2.66), 2.10, 1.46, 1.00, .74, .50
......................

6 Speed

I can get a T56 Viper trans w/

2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.00, .74, .50 (opt. .80, .62 )
......................


Or I can have my TR3650 built w/ 2.97, 2.10, 1.46, 1:1, .74, .50 gears?


I'm guessing I want the highest 5th gear number I can get?

.
I'm confused....you say shifting into 5th is worthless? Is that because you're so close to the finish line when you shift? Most transmissions have 4th gear as 1:1, so none of those would change your shift RPM, except that with better gearing in the bottom three gears you may approach redline in 4th sooner, thus making 5th gear more usable. I would agree you want the highest 5th you can get, but what may be more important is the gearing on 1/2/3. As Dan says, you want the engine to operate in the peak of the power band, so if you have a peaky torque curve you'd want a close ratio trans.

[68fastback]

I'm confused....you say shifting into 5th is worthless? Is that because you're so close to the finish line when you shift? Most transmissions have 4th gear as 1:1, so none of those would change your shift RPM, except that with better gearing in the bottom three gears you may approach redline in 4th sooner, thus making 5th gear more usable. I would agree you want the highest 5th you can get, but what may be more important is the gearing on 1/2/3. As Dan says, you want the engine to operate in the peak of the power band, so if you have a peaky torque curve you'd want a close ratio trans.

Dave, I think TG's saying the huge OD gear (.67) on the 3650 is useless to accelerate above 100. He said earlier there's still more straight left but it isn't pulling in OD ...prolly because it's dropping his rpm so much below the power band that he's having trouble pushing all that air resistance at 100+ with that tall ratio. His same tranny with a .86 OD would probably work decently, but if he's going to spend on a tranny, might as well get a close-ratio (as you also suggested). But might as well start with the 3.55s since they're cheap and see how much that helps before springing for a pricey tranny tho.

---

TG, question: you mentioned way earlier that you're pulling about 100 down the straight in 4th but should be pulling 120. What are you basing that +/-120 on? Other cars with similar peak HP or ???

[Tommy Gun]

Dave, I think TG's saying the huge OD gear (.67) on the 3650 is useless to accelerate above 100. He said earlier there's still more straight left but it isn't pulling in OD ...prolly because it's dropping his rpm so much below the power band that he's having trouble pushing all that air resistance at 100+ with that tall ratio. His same tranny with a .86 OD would probably work decently, but if he's going to spend on a tranny, might as well get a close-ratio (as you also suggested). But might as well start with the 3.55s since they're cheap and see how much that helps before springing for a pricey tranny tho.

---

TG, question: you mentioned way earlier that you're pulling about 100 down the straight in 4th but should be pulling 120. What are you basing that +/-120 on? Other cars with similar peak HP or ???



I am hitting 120 consistently on the long straights. In 4th gear at 6000-6200 rpm.

If I shift into 5th at that point it just gets sluggish although I know I still have more to go....gear is just too steep.

Basing off other similar cars w/ 3.73 diffs and similar models that are going close to 130 mph.

The main guy that I followed consistently through the curves and can keep up w/ pretty good always pulled away in the straights. He had a similar car, w/ 3.73 gears, but has a TKO trans. Just not sure which one and what gears was in it. He was consistently hitting 130 in the straights.

[Tommy Gun]

I'm confused....you say shifting into 5th is worthless? Is that because you're so close to the finish line when you shift? Most transmissions have 4th gear as 1:1, so none of those would change your shift RPM, except that with better gearing in the bottom three gears you may approach redline in 4th sooner, thus making 5th gear more usable. I would agree you want the highest 5th you can get, but what may be more important is the gearing on 1/2/3. As Dan says, you want the engine to operate in the peak of the power band, so if you have a peaky torque curve you'd want a close ratio trans.


I have probably another 700 feet of acceleration before braking to go.

Car is screaming around 6000rpm, so I want to go to 5th, but 5th is just sluggish ....gear too steep or something.

.

[68fastback]

Ooops, my error ...yeah, you were saying earlier you hit 120 but should be able to hit 130ish.

Well, if the motor has the grunt to pull 130, and you're presently hitting 120 at 6K, 3.55s will get you to 126 at 6K. The closer ratio box will enhance acceleration becasue you'll spend every gear in the power band ...that could easily get you a few more mph, but then you'll be out of revs again (since 4th is 1:1 either way) ...130 would put you just shy of 6200. *OR* you could keep the 3.73s and use a bit more than half of OD-gear (.84)with the close-ratio to get to 130.

Do you know if the other guy/guys htting 130 with TKO-close ratio and 3.73s are using 5th/OD at end of straight? It would seem that have to unles they have slightly taller tires (another option?) since it's gotta match up. Alternatively, if they've got the same tires/3.73s/1:1-4th, then they're pulling 6500 at 130 vs 6K at 120.

[Joe G]

Dan brought up a good point (I know... a first :giggle:) - what is your friend's rear tire size? If they're taller (larger diameter), it effectively raises (lower #) the rear gear ratio.

Also, what RPM is he going up to when hitting 130mph?

[Tommy Gun]

Ooops, my error ...yeah, you were saying earlier you hit 120 but should be able to hit 130ish.

Well, if the motor has the grunt to pull 130, and you're presently hitting 120 at 6K, 3.55s will get you to 126 at 6K. The closer ratio box will enhance acceleration becasue you'll spend every gear in the power band ...that could easily get you a few more mph, but then you'll be out of revs again (since 4th is 1:1 either way) ...130 would put you just shy of 6200. *OR* you could keep the 3.73s and use a bit more than half of OD-gear (.84)with the close-ratio to get to 130.

Do you know if the other guy/guys htting 130 with TKO-close ratio and 3.73s are using 5th/OD at end of straight? It would seem that have to unles they have slightly taller tires (another option?) since it's gotta match up. Alternatively, if they've got the same tires/3.73s/1:1-4th, then they're pulling 6500 at 130 vs 6K at 120.


I don't know positively, but I beleieve we have relatively the same tire size.

I think the difference here is that these guys are well into 6 grand territory, probably hitting 6500-6600 rpm.

They have 340-350 rwhp like me, but theirs (like Mastersmech) is naturally aspired, no supercharger help.


What I would love to know is what is my safe point rpm wise to go to w/a S/C'd 4.6L.

If it is safe to go to 6700-6800 rpm's then I would just push the car harder (to 6500 rpm's) and not change the tranny or gears. :wtg:


Is there a 4.6L forum I can join to find out? :look:

[Joe G]

I say run it to 8,000rpm :look:










I breaks, you can get one of these from me. http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9678

[Tommy Gun]

I say run it to 8,000rpm :look:










I breaks, you can get one of these from me. http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9678


I can't even get anoil pump delivered, much less a whole motor from you?







:tiptoe:

.

[Tommy Gun]

And that motor cost more than i payed for the whole car. :surprised:

.

[Joe G]

I can't even get anoil pump delivered, much less a whole motor from you?

:tiptoe:

.

We can drop ship the motor from the factory.

[Joe G]

And that motor cost more than i payed for the whole car. :surprised:

.

I'll get ya a deal. :spend:








:sofa:

[Tommy Gun]

I'll get ya a deal. :spend:








:sofa:



What type deal can you get on this?


http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=8643



Does it include shipping? :popcorn:

.

[Tommy Gun]

It already has a T56 6 spd as well. :shades:

.

[Tommy Gun]

http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=7619


:shades:

.

[Joe G]

What type deal can you get on this?


http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=8643



Does it include shipping? :popcorn:

.

$104899.95

Unsure on shipping.









:giggle:

[Joe G]

http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=7619


:shades:

.

Isn't that more than your entire car cost? :faint:

[Tommy Gun]

$104899.95

Unsure on shipping.









:giggle:


I guess CD was right.


We get 4-5 cents off :nonono:


.

[Joe G]

I guess CD was right.


We get 4-5 cents off :nonono:


.

:haha:

[Tommy Gun]

:grin:
.

[68fastback]

I don't know positively, but I beleieve we have relatively the same tire size.

I think the difference here is that these guys are well into 6 grand territory, probably hitting 6500-6600 rpm.

They have 340-350 rwhp like me, but theirs (like Mastersmech) is naturally aspired, no supercharger help.


What I would love to know is what is my safe point rpm wise to go to w/a S/C'd 4.6L.

If it is safe to go to 6700-6800 rpm's then I would just push the car harder (to 6500 rpm's) and not change the tranny or gears. :wtg:


Is there a 4.6L forum I can join to find out? :look:


I think you don't want to push the stock 2V to higher revs ...ia bigger cam (power) and racing valve-springs (revs) would get you more, but the 2V GT is essentially the same motor as in the taxis -- tough motor but not forged and it's done by 6K

By comparo, the 2001 Cobra (4V) makes peak power at 6800 (fuel cut at 7K). With rev limiter off 2001 Cobra will easily rev to 7600 (stock is all forged internals) but it's really done at 7K powerwise so no point revving past that. Similarly, your 2V will prolly rev to 6500, but it's done powerwise at 6K and since no forged internals I think not a good idea to do that. I think you'll have to work with gearing (diff/trans) unless you change/build motor. Remember when you were getting the track turd I was saying to consider a 2001 Cobra? ...this is why ...the forged 4V gives you a lot more to work with.

[Tommy Gun]

All part of the game. :grin:


Just trying to squeeze a little more blood out of that turnip. :look:



I need to start a thread on what future motor I should look at building. I don't need much more power, just much more strength. :flex:

.

[68fastback]

...this one is holding up pretty darn well tho with 8-10# boost ...has to be a kick to drive!! ...it's all about having fun, right? :banana:

[Tommy Gun]

:wtg:

[Carnut]

All part of the game. :grin:


Just trying to squeeze a little more blood out of that turnip. :look:



I need to start a thread on what future motor I should look at building. I don't need much more power, just much more strength. :flex:

.

You need to establish a budget first.

It could be as cheap as rebuildiing your bottom end with better parts, or as much as the price of a new GT500.

A pretty good motor is gonna cost you about 10k, more or less.

[Tommy Gun]

You need to establish a budget first.

It could be as cheap as rebuildiing your bottom end with better parts, or as much as the price of a new GT500.

A pretty good motor is gonna cost you about 10k, more or less.


I would probably buy a short/long block from someone. I don't know anyone local I would trust to build a bottom end and I have not put together a motor in 20 plus years.

I'd love to buy one from Ford, but the least expensive I have found is about $7,000 just for a long block. :faint:

.

[68fastback]

Complete 5.0 Coyote (MGT) is $7K (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11829)...but then needs supporting pieces (they list) which adds to the cost. An amazing price tho for that complete engine ...I realize that's not what you're looking for ...just mentioning what a great price that is.

Then you'll need the Boss intake -lol and the dealer-installed dual-key BOSS race tune :biggrin: (dunno if even possible)


Would be good if you get a wrecked '01 Cobra to 'import' motor and supporting pieces from...

[Joe G]

Would be good if you get a wrecked '01 Cobra to 'import' motor and supporting pieces from...

That's what I'd be looking for too.

[68fastback]

That's what I'd be looking for too.

...the '99 is also a good choice (both are all-alloy) but the intake is not quite as good. Both are rated at 320, I think, but the '99 used a 'hydro-grit' polished intake that was field replaced by Ford becausevendor screwed-up and it actually made about 314 ...pi$$ed off so many folks that they stopped production short and didn't do a Cobra in 2000. They eventually figured out the problem and retrofit any '99s that the owner complained about. The 2001 has the improved intake and tune even tho rating is the same. With a CAI and tune they make 312-318 at the wheels. Both years are all-forged internals ...but the rods are not H-beams (like the SC'd '03-4 termies).

[Tommy Gun]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1999-Ford-Mustang-4-6L-DOHC-COBRA-Engine-83k-w-Warranty-/320036954467?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4a83b06163

[Tommy Gun]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-Ford-Mustang-4-6L-DOHC-COBRA-Engine-70k-w-Warranty-/220121159986?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33403e5932

[Tommy Gun]

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/cto/2058708581.html

[68fastback]

..cool! ...SC'd to 5 psi 99/01s usually make about 400rw and at 9 psi about 460rw @ 7K ...probably that's about as far as you'd want to go anyway? Still pricey ...I don't think they included the electronics with that either. I think those Cobras came with same trany you have -- the big-OD 5-spd 3650. At 7K top-end you'd not likely run out of rpm on the straights, but a close ratio would still give more flexibility to stay in power-band (on almost any engine) more consistantly which generally translates to faster acceleration too.

[Tommy Gun]

..cool! ...SC'd to 5 psi 99/01s usually make about 400rw and at 9 psi about 460rw @ 7K ...probably that's about as far as you'd want to go anyway? Still pricey ...I don't think they included the electronics with that either. I think those Cobras came with same trany you have -- the big-OD 5-spd 3650. At 7K top-end you'd not likely run out of rpm on the straights, but a close ratio would still give more flexibility to stay in power-band (on almost any engine) more consistantly which generally translates to faster acceleration too.


I still think the Cobras TB's are set-up different.

My year still has the cable. Cobra's including the 03 and 04 have drive by wire, not sure how I would switch over?

Perhaps the 99-01 doesn't??



If I could figure out a 4.6L that has 375-400 rwhp , is naturally aspired, bolts right in, and cost no more than $5,000.... I would go that route. :grin:

Problem is I really don't know these modular motors enough to figure out what will work or not.

[Tommy Gun]

I know a guy that has one of these no mile motors sitting around, but it's still just a factory motor.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/96-04-Ford-Mustang-GT-4-6-Crate-Engine-4-6L-Motor-/250722042463?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6032c25f

[Tommy Gun]

:idea:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TEKSID-4-6-4v-Cobra-FORGED-race-engine-motor-v8-new-/170567413439?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27b69c2ebf

[68fastback]

:idea:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TEKSID-4-6-4v-Cobra-FORGED-race-engine-motor-v8-new-/170567413439?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27b69c2ebf

:drool: ...teksid block too ;-) ...but that's just the "starting bid" ...I bet that puppy goes for around 10K before it's over?

I'm almost 100% certain the 99/01s are all cable actualted TBs ...Ford didn't do ETC until '05, I believe.

[Tommy Gun]

All my choices look very expensive.

Wish I knew someone local who could build up the bottom end for me. :grin:

.

[Stew]

Please forgive my stupid question, but what is special about TEKSID?

[Tommy Gun]

Stew is back! :crazy:




Good question. :hiding:

.

[Stew]

Stew is back! :crazy:

:hi:




Good question. :hiding:

.

I found their website and they are an Italian aluminum parts maker. Hmmm maybe when we stop there next year maybe I should pick up some engine parts instead of wine and cigars.

[Tommy Gun]

Quote from a website...

...while Ford makes many great engine blocks, and most will fit the bill for the majority of users, the original TEKSID Block, is still the preferred route when serious horsepower is needed. These all aluminum TEKSID Blocks were made in Turin, Italy by TEKSID Aluminum Inc., the Worlds leader in Cast, Forged and Lost-Foam Aluminum engine parts. TEKSID, provides the worlds best automotive manufacturers with the highest quality aluminum pieces in the world! They provide Ferrari, Lamborghini, Fiat, Porsche, Opal, Ford, Maserati, Audi and many other automotive manufacturers with the highest quality aluminum parts available.
Ford used their services to provide engine blocks in the early years of the 4.6L DOHC 4V engine, till they had the casting capacities to due the job themselves. While Ford did a fairly good job, their standards, alloy content, accuracy of cast, tolerances, and overall strength and quality was not up to those set by the TEKSID company.
The TEKSID Block is a very special and coveted commodity in the Ford racing community. It's production years were between 1993 and 1998, and was only used on the 4.6L 4V DOHC Engines. It's a testament to the original quality of the TEKSID plant that their block remains the "Engine Block to Have" still today. Ford used this block much like they used the Manley Connecting Rods and Pistons in there 2003-2004 Cobra 4.6L 4V DOHC Engines. They needed something fast that would work with this new combination of super-charged horsepower, and it had to last. The Manley rods and pistons worked perfectly, and are still considered to be quality, performance pieces today. Of-coarse Ford went back to there Powdered Metal Rods and Cast Aluminum Pistons after the "Terminator", or 4.6L 4V DOHC ‘03-04 Cobra engines were done. Much like the TEKSID block, the quality was there, but the pieces were to expensive for Ford's use in production bases cars. Kind of says a lot about the thinking inside the car world....But hey, at least they were willing to use these great parts and services of some of the worlds best High Performance Parts Manufacturers, for a while.

[Stew]

Good info TG. I learned something today. :woohoo:

[Tommy Gun]

Me too. :grin:

[Joe G]

That Teksid block motor would be awesome to have.

[68fastback]

Please forgive my stupid question, but what is special about TEKSID?

Hey Stew -- good to see you back!! Is Sharun still in the trunk? :biggrin:

For the early years of the 4V modular Ford contracted some of the block casting/machining (unsure how much 'finish' Teksid did) to Teksid (now Teksid Group, Inc.) or Turin Italy. Teksid was (and still is) regarded as one of, if not the, world premier alloy caster and has done much of the castings for Farrari, Lambo, etc for some time. Ford alloy 4Vs from 93-98 were Teksid blocks as were many early '99 Cobras. I've heard a few early '01 Cobras have also turned up with Teksid blocks but I've never seen it confirmed and my friends's is not. You can tell a Teksid from Ford Windsor "WEP" (Windsor Engine Plant) casting from the waffle pattern in the V-valley. Teksids have a 'square' (oriented up-down/left-right) waffle pattern and the Ford-cast alloy 4Vs have a diamond-oriented (diagonal waffle) pattern. The Teksid blocks are believed to be the strongest early modular blocks and have been historically favored by race-engine builders. However, I''ve heard that subsequent tortional and stress analysis on the later Ford 4V castings ('01, in particular) indicate that the difference is not all that significant and more recent improved Ford alloy 4Vs (like the Aluminator) are likely substantially stronger than the Teksids. Below is a pic of Teksid (on left -- horizontal waffle) ...one of the last ones made for Ford; and a WEP Ford-cast block (on right -- diagonal waffle). All the Ford Teksids were made by the same folks with the same process in the same facility as the Ferraris, etc, which didn't hurt the well-justified mystique either. Teksid does all sorts of complex hi-tech metal casting but Ford only had Teksid do 4V alloy 4.6 modular blocks from '93-'98, with some '99s (and possibly a very few if any of the earliest '01s).

34343435

[edit:] btw, with a flashlight you can see under the intake and into the valley on 4V NA mod ...so can tell if it's a Teksid with no disassmbly required.

[Tommy Gun]

What I have is a 2002 4.6L currently w/ 354rwhp/350rwtq 3.77:1 diff gears and a TR-3650 trans w/ these gears...

1st: 3.380:1
2nd: 2.000:1
3rd: 1.320:1
4th: 1.000:1
5th: 0.670:1


At the track I run out of gear at the top of 4th gear at 6000-6200rpm. Shifting into 5th is basically worthless (I guess because of the gearing)

Looking for an upgrade and hoping for some info before I call transmission places so I don't look too dumb. :shades: LOL


I'm looking at 5 spds and 6 spds to replace what I have. Wondering what gear set-up would work best at the track?

......................

5 Speed

I can get a Tremec TKO 600 Ford Road Race overdrive (TCET4617)
Transmission w/ ....


2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, .82
......................
6 Speed

I can get a built T56 Magnum trans w/

2.97 (or 2.66), 2.10, 1.46, 1.00, .74, .50
......................

6 Speed

I can get a T56 Viper trans w/

2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.00, .74, .50 (opt. .80, .62 )
......................


Or I can have my TR3650 built w/ 2.97, 2.10, 1.46, 1:1, .74, .50 gears?


I'm guessing I want the highest 5th gear number I can get?

.




I was able to get the tuner to unlock my SCT device before my last track run so I could check/change the RPM's.

I found that my RPM limit was set at 6050 RPM. That is why the car was turning into a pig when I revved to 6000 rpm. I was probably hitting the limit each time.

I set the Rpm's to 6300 rpm and at the track this time I still ran it up to 6000-6100 and it was so much better.

Usually still stayed in 4th gear, but was able to now hit closer to 130 mph in the straights rather than 120 mph.

That is plenty for this car.....for now. :weg:

Would be nice to eventually have a stronger trans w/ better gearing, but for now the RPM change made a very nice difference.

I think now I'll look at next winters mods to start w/ a Torsen TR-2 and 31 spline axles to beef it up.

Maybe look closer at that 400 HP naturally aspired motor..... :weg:

.

[68fastback]

I was able to get the tuner to unlock my SCT device before my last track run so I could check/change the RPM's.

I found that my RPM limit was set at 6050 RPM. That is why the car was turning into a pig when I revved to 6000 rpm. I was probably hitting the limit each time.

I set the Rpm's to 6300 rpm and at the track this time I still ran it up to 6000-6100 and it was so much better.

Usually still stayed in 4th gear, but was able to now hit closer to 130 mph in the straights rather than 120 mph.

That is plenty for this car.....for now. :weg:

Would be nice to eventually have a stronger trans w/ better gearing, but for now the RPM change made a very nice difference.

I think now I'll look at next winters mods to start w/ a Torsen TR-2 and 31 spline axles to beef it up.

Maybe look closer at that 400 HP naturally aspired motor..... :weg:

.

:wtg: awesome!

...rev limiters will tend to do that :grin: :hide:

[Tommy Gun]

:wtg: awesome!

...rev limiters will tend to do that :grin: :hide:


I assumed the limiter was set much higher knowing this local tuner, but for some reason he had set it to 6050. :doh2:

[Alloy Dave]

Good news TG.

I was impressed when you said 130 MPH, but I thought that was 1/4 mile. Then I remembered you don't have an alloy car, so I knew it must have been a LONG straightaway.

[Tommy Gun]

I'll give you a long straightaway. :trouble:



.

[Joe G]

Maybe look closer at that 400 HP naturally aspired motor..... :weg:

.You gonna use your big tax refund to order that engine from BVM Performance? :popcorn:

[Tommy Gun]

Not this year. :shades:

I still need money for my clutch install, and I need 4 tires on the GT500. :nonono:

.