CEL - Code P0420

[Boston Mike]

I think I have this in the right place based on my excellent googling skills. Does this mean likely i have some sort of leak or a bad o2 sensor or should I be freaking out???

[tekheavy]

I think I have this in the right place based on my excellent googling skills. Does this mean likely i have some sort of leak or a bad o2 sensor or should I be freaking out???

Kinda seems like it's an o2 sensor fault according to this.

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0420

[Boston Mike]

Kinda seems like it's an o2 sensor fault according to this.

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0420

yeah, we found the same website. I'm assuming I'm okay to drive it to my shop if this is what it is................should I try clearing the code first?

[tekheavy]

yeah, we found the same website. I'm assuming I'm okay to drive it to my shop if this is what it is................should I try clearing the code first?

You can try clearing it, but it will probably come back on after you drive the car if the o2 sensor is actually at fault. Shouldn't be a problem driving the car as long as it is just the o2 sensor.

[JTB]

You can try clearing it, but it will probably come back on after you drive the car if the o2 sensor is actually at fault. Shouldn't be a problem driving the car as long as it is just the o2 sensor.


:moneyman:

[Joe G]

:moneyman:

Not necessarily. Dan posted a link on where to get the good O2 sensors a while back (think on the other forum) for a decent price. I can't find it now. :doh2:

[Boston Mike]

:moneyman:

Dang, and I was about to send a donation to Leafs-anonymous on your behalf, benefiting poor lost souls who think the Leafs are any good.

[Boston Mike]

Not necessarily. Dan posted a link on where to get the good O2 sensors a while back (think on the other forum) for a decent price. I can't find it now. :doh2:

Where's Dan when I need him? I guess if that's the case, it might be the right time to throw in a wideband, right?

:moneyman:

Sorry JT. There goes my donation to the Little Giants charity.

[Boston Mike]

I guess long short, with that code, I should be okay to drive the 8 miles to my office in the am (40mph speed limit the whole way) and take it in at lunchtime? Just in time for my annual inspection. :doh:

[Joe G]

I don't know enough to say for sure. I was hoping Birdy, blackshelby or someone with some tech knowledge would chime in.

[Joe G]

Where's Dan when I need him? I guess if that's the case, it might be the right time to throw in a wideband, right?

.

Yep. Perfect time. You'll just need to run the wiring and hook it up to the gauge (do you have one of those?)

[Boston Mike]

I don't know enough to say for sure. I was hoping Birdy, blackshelby or someone with some tech knowledge would chime in.

me too..........

[Joe G]

Maybe you can bribe Dan with some wool hats and he'll write a 20 page paper on it? :ninja3:


http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc289/JoeG_09/Dan5.jpg

[Boston Mike]

Yep. Perfect time. You'll just need to run the wiring and hook it up to the gauge (do you have one of those?)

not yet, although I guess I could use one of the Interceptor gauges I have (they have a wideband kit for it.........

[68fastback]

See Pg 7 and 8 HERE (http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/OBDSM704.pdf). P0420 is saying your bank-1 catylist index ratio was out of spec (difference in O2 switching ratio before/after catylist violated .75 ration, if Im reading it right). So O2 could be a problem or the catylist itself (inferred condition based on O2 switching per that p7 chart) could be the problem.

Since the ratio that's compared changes based on sensed ethanol content, I wonder if you got some bad gas or separation going on? O2s usually have really long lifespans. If a rear one is not switching as reliably (within the index ratio relative to it's corresponding front O2), then it lights the MIL, but P0420 might be just a fouled/bad O2 skewing the ratio.

I'd bet a nice long drive at 3000 rpm or so (3rd gear on the interstate? -- not in the driveway :haha:. oops, wrong person :biggrin:) with some fresh gas; clear the code, and maybe it won't come back. If it does, then either catylist or O2 (or tune?).

If it is an O2, Ford uses NTK O2s (NGK's O2 division) pretty much exclusively, so if you can match the numbers off the O2 'nut' (if it turns out to be an O2, but I'm thinking not), you might be able to get the NTK-branded piece more cheaply as I did for the Taurus ($38 with shipping(!) right from NTK vs $150-something list from Ford!). However, it looks to me like the NTK site no longer does direct sales, but THIS COMPANY (http://www.familycar.com/store/?Ntt=ford+mustang+ntk+oxygen+sensor&oes=true)seems to have your NTK for $53.95 ...or the Motorcraft branded version (5C5A-9F472-AA) (http://www.familycar.com/store/?Ntt=ford+mustang+motorcraft+oxygen+sensor&oes=true) for $81.60. Not bad at all!

Make sure I'm assuming the correct numbers, Mike (if you actually need one) -- I don't have a GT500 parts list.

[tekheavy]

See Pg 7 and 8 HERE (http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/OBDSM704.pdf). P0420 is saying your bank-1 catylist index ratio was out of spec (difference in O2 switching ratio before/after catylist violated .75 ration, if Im reading it right). So O2 could be a problem or the catylist itself (inferred condition based on O2 switching per that p7 chart) could be the problem.

Since the ratio that's compared changes based on sensed ethanol content, I wonder if you got some bad gas or separation going on? O2s usually have really long lifespans. If a rear one is not switching as reliably (within the index ratio relative to it's corresponding front O2), then it lights the MIL, but P0420 might be just a fouled/bad O2 skewing the ratio.

I'd bet a nice long drive at 3000 rpm or so (3rd gear on the interstate? -- not in the driveway :haha:. oops, wrong person :biggrin:) with some fresh gas; clear the code, and maybe it won't come back. If it does, then either catylist or O2 (or tune?).

If it is an O2, Ford uses NTK O2s (NGK's O2 division) pretty much exclusively, so if you can match the numbers off the O2 'nut' (if it turns out to be an O2, but I'm thinking not), you might be able to get the NTK-branded piece more cheaply as I did for the Taurus ($38 with shipping(!) right from NTK vs $150-something list from Ford!). However, it looks to me like the NTK site no longer does direct sales, but THIS COMPANY (http://www.familycar.com/store/?Ntt=ford+mustang+ntk+oxygen+sensor&oes=true)seems to have your NTK for $53.95 ...or the Motorcraft branded version (5C5A-9F472-AA) (http://www.familycar.com/store/?Ntt=ford+mustang+motorcraft+oxygen+sensor&oes=true) for $81.60. Not bad at all!

Make sure I'm assuming the correct numbers, Mike (if you actually need one) -- I don't have a GT500 parts list.

:iagree:












:lol:

[Boston Mike]

See Pg 7 and 8 HERE (http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/OBDSM704.pdf). P0420 is saying your bank-1 catylist index ratio was out of spec (difference in O2 switching ratio before/after catylist violated .75 ration, if Im reading it right). So O2 could be a problem or the catylist itself (inferred condition based on O2 switching per that p7 chart) could be the problem.

Since the ratio that's compared changes based on sensed ethanol content, I wonder if you got some bad gas or separation going on? O2s usually have really long lifespans. If a rear one is not switching as reliably (within the index ratio relative to it's corresponding front O2), then it lights the MIL, but P0420 might be just a fouled/bad O2 skewing the ratio.

I'd bet a nice long drive at 3000 rpm or so (3rd gear on the interstate? -- not in the driveway :haha:. oops, wrong person :biggrin:) with some fresh gas; clear the code, and maybe it won't come back. If it does, then either catylist or O2 (or tune?).

If it is an O2, Ford uses NTK O2s (NGK's O2 division) pretty much exclusively, so if you can match the numbers off the O2 'nut' (if it turns out to be an O2, but I'm thinking not), you might be able to get the NTK-branded piece more cheaply as I did for the Taurus ($38 with shipping(!) right from NTK vs $150-something list from Ford!). However, it looks to me like the NTK site no longer does direct sales, but THIS COMPANY (http://www.familycar.com/store/?Ntt=ford+mustang+ntk+oxygen+sensor&oes=true)seems to have your NTK for $53.95 ...or the Motorcraft branded version (5C5A-9F472-AA) (http://www.familycar.com/store/?Ntt=ford+mustang+motorcraft+oxygen+sensor&oes=true) for $81.60. Not bad at all!

Make sure I'm assuming the correct numbers, Mike (if you actually need one) -- I don't have a GT500 parts list.

Man, I hope it's not bad gas. I fill up at one of two places exclusively in town (chevron and kroger for the
Discount). I did just fill up the night prior. Hmmmmmm. In any case, even if it was a bad cat, wouldn't be a problem to drive on it for a short bit (enough to get to my tech and have the cats checked)?

[JTB]

How many miles on your car? Will this be warranty so you save the :spend:?

[The Bone]

stop buying cheap gas

[JTB]

stop buying cheap gas




:spitcopy:

[Boston Mike]

How many miles on your car? Will this be warranty so you save the :spend:?

22k, but wondering if with hi flo cats, warranty might not. If it's just a sensor I have no problem with paying $100 bucks. If it's the cats, well, they're not factory anyways so wouldn't be covered. I had a plan for long tubes in a month or so (:moneyman: comes in Feb) so I'd hate to have to do something right now if I didn't have to. I did clear the code before I left the house and no CEL on my ride in.

[Boston Mike]

stop buying cheap gas

but 87 is so much cheaper than 93. :shades:

[Joe G]

but 87 is so much cheaper than 93. :shades:

Start looking for a :monkey: deal on a new engine.



:lol:

[Boston Mike]

Start looking for a :monkey: deal on a new engine.



:lol:

:haha:

No, I'm spoiled by having 93 at my disposal anywhere. Say, can BVM come up with a set of Dynatech long tubes with catted x for me? :grin:

[Joe G]

Say, can BVM come up with a set of Dynatech long tubes with catted x for me? :grin:

:yes:

[Boston Mike]

:yes:

:waiting:

[68fastback]

Man, I hope it's not bad gas. I fill up at one of two places exclusively in town (chevron and kroger for the
Discount). I did just fill up the night prior. Hmmmmmm. In any case, even if it was a bad cat, wouldn't be a problem to drive on it for a short bit (enough to get to my tech and have the cats checked)?


I think it would not be a problem driving it. Dunno, but possibly snowmelt drained into the in-ground tanks? ...who knows which could cause the ECU to use a higher/tighter ratio in the logic chart (the more ethanol the tighter the ratio is uses to eval the catalyst and water might be affecting that (dunno). If it's not fuel and not the O2 (since they're very durable) then the inferred ECU diagnoses of a catalist problem seems like the only thing ...regardless of the cause. If you can get the catalist to light-off properly and burn-off ny affending crud (*if* that's it) and thereby get the pre and post cat O2s in a tighter switching ratio (meaning the cat is working well), it might never come back ...that's why I was suggesting some higher rev colsed-loop (no WOT) cruising on fresh gas ...might work, might not, depends on the cause.

[edit:] I missed that it hasn't come back since cleared ...might just be a one-shot problem.

[Boston Mike]

I think it would not be a problem driving it. Dunno, but possibly snowmelt drained into the in-ground tanks? ...who knows which could cause the ECU to use a higher/tighter ratio in the logic chart (the more ethanol the tighter the ratio is uses to eval the catalyst and water might be affecting that (dunno). If it's not fuel and not the O2 (since they're very durable) then the inferred ECU diagnoses of a catalist problem seems like the only thing ...regardless of the cause. If you can get the catalist to light-off properly and burn-off ny affending crud (*if* that's it) and thereby get the pre and post cat O2s in a tighter switching ratio (meaning the cat is working well), it might never come back ...that's why I was suggesting some higher rev colsed-loop (no WOT) cruising on fresh gas ...might work, might not, depends on the cause.

Talked to my tech...........he thinks it's likely a sensor issue, but said if the code cleared, drive it around a bit and see if it comes back on. So apparantly you is smart.

[Joe G]

:waiting:

Who are you kidding? I'm not rushing anything for Mister "I want Joe to get me a price so I can wait 9 months before buying it, eventually ending up getting it used from Chef".

:cop3:










:rofl3:

[Boston Mike]

Who are you kidding? I'm not rushing anything for Mister "I want Joe to get me a price so I can wait 9 months before buying it, eventually ending up getting it used from Chef".

:cop3:










:rofl3:

Well, if Chef would hurry up and buy some LTs then I wouldn't be asking you. :tease2:

[Joe G]

:doh2:

[Boston Mike]

:doh2:

:waiting:


Model: 122-643300A
Model: 122-643300B

[68fastback]

Talked to my tech...........he thinks it's likely a sensor issue, but said if the code cleared, drive it around a bit and see if it comes back on. So apparantly you is smart.


..cool!

[JTB]

Start looking for a :monkey: deal on a new engine.



:lol:

I have a line on FREE engines. :shades:

[Boston Mike]

I have a line on FREE engines. :shades:

?????

[Tommy Gun]

Who are you kidding? I'm not rushing anything for Mister "I want Joe to get me a price so I can wait 9 months before buying it, eventually ending up getting it used from Chef".

:cop3:










:rofl3:



Now that is a good post. :wtg:



On a side note Monkey butt, most of the long tubes I've seen hang under the car pretty good. I don't remember if your car is lowered, but long tubes on a lowered car as a daily driver, you will have to watch low clearance stuff all the time.

.

[Tommy Gun]

I have a line on FREE engines. :shades:


I'll take a 4.6L w/ a built bottom end for my track car.

I'll PM you my address.


Thanks. :wtg:

.

[Boston Mike]

Now that is a good post. :wtg:



On a side note Monkey butt, most of the long tubes I've seen hang under the car pretty good. I don't remember if your car is lowered, but long tubes on a lowered car as a daily driver, you will have to watch low clearance stuff all the time.

.

Already do. I can't get over those temporary rubber speedbumps without catching something. Fortunately, they're rubber, so no big deal.

[Gr8snkbite]

Talked to my tech...........he thinks it's likely a sensor issue, but said if the code cleared, drive it around a bit and see if it comes back on. So apparantly you is smart.

thats what i said in the email....:doh2:

[Cheftjpeck]

Who are you kidding? I'm not rushing anything for Mister "I want Joe to get me a price so I can wait 9 months before buying it, eventually ending up getting it used from Chef".

:cop3:










:rofl3:

:hey2:

whatchatalkinboutwillis


:trouble:

[Cheftjpeck]

Well, if Chef would hurry up and buy some LTs then I wouldn't be asking you. :tease2:

I did and already sold them.:doh2:...too slow... :tease2:

[Tommy Gun]

Already do. I can't get over those temporary rubber speedbumps without catching something. Fortunately, they're rubber, so no big deal.


That something would be exhaust metal.

If you crunch them enough you could mess up your motor.

[Tommy Gun]

I did and already sold them.:doh2:...too slow... :tease2:


Thanks. :tiphat2:

.

[Boston Mike]

That something would be exhaust metal.

If you crunch them enough you could mess up your motor.

they're not crunching, but just catching a little. I have them looked at everytime they're up.

[Boston Mike]

thats what i said in the email....:doh2:

you is smart too. :tease2:

[Tommy Gun]

they're not crunching, but just catching a little. I have them looked at everytime they're up.


Are you saying you already have longtube headers?


I thought you said you wanted to change to them?

.

[Boston Mike]

Are you saying you already have longtube headers?


I thought you said you wanted to change to them?

.

No, still stock manifolds and your JBA hi flows.

[Tommy Gun]

So what are you checking in post #44?

Longtubes hang down much lower.

[Boston Mike]

So what are you checking in post #44?

my ***** hang down much lower.

Whatever is catching those silly rubber speedbumps. I avoid real ones at all costs. Worst case, I can always put the stock springs back on.................

About that other part.......:tmi:

[tekheavy]

:wow2:

[Tommy Gun]

Whatever is catching those silly rubber speedbumps. I avoid real ones at all costs. Worst case, I can always put the stock springs back on.................

About that other part.......:tmi:


Do you hit speed bumps straight on?

If you roll over speed bumps at an angle (even slight angle) the tires hit at different points and give you a less likely scenario to scrape stuff under a car.

For example...

If I drive straight over a speed bump at 10 miles an hour I will bump something, but if I roll over it at an angle I can go 15 mph w/o hitting anything.

And it doesn't jar you around as much at an angle as well.

.

[Cheftjpeck]

Do you hit speed bumps straight on?

If you roll over speed bumps at an angle (even slight angle) the tires hit at different points and give you a less likely scenario to scrape stuff under a car.

For example...

If I drive straight over a speed bump at 10 miles an hour I will bump something, but if I roll over it at an angle I can go 15 mph w/o hitting anything.

And it doesn't jar you around as much at an angle as well.

.
I always hit it at an angle.....dont want to scrape anything like I would if I went straight on..:tease2:

[Tommy Gun]

I always hit it at an angle.....dont want to scrape anything like I would if I went straight on..:tease2:



I mean speed bumps. :groan:

.

[Cheftjpeck]

I mean speed bumps. :groan:

.

:ohsnap: sorry...yeah those too... :grin:

[Tommy Gun]

:doh2:

[Cheftjpeck]

although they both have allot in common...either one if you are going too fast, problems can occur... :tease2:

[HSURB]

I think I have this in the right place based on my excellent googling skills. Does this mean likely i have some sort of leak or a bad o2 sensor or should I be freaking out???

I know I'm chiming in a little late, but I'm almost positive a Code PO420 is for excessively corroded battery terminals.

JUST SAYIN'

HSURB®:haha:

[Shlbylvr]

I know I'm chiming in a little late, but I'm almost positive a Code PO420 is for excessively corroded battery terminals.

JUST SAYIN'

HSURB®:haha:
:goodpost:

[Gr8snkbite]

:cop2:

[Tommy Gun]

Keith this is a tech thread, stop mucking it up w/ smilie posts!


.

[tekheavy]

:spitcopy:

[Joe G]

I know I'm chiming in a little late, but I'm almost positive a Code PO420 is for excessively corroded battery terminals.

JUST SAYIN'

HSURB®:haha:

:spitcopy:

[Gr8snkbite]

:waiting:

[Boston Mike]

Well, no issues since I cleared the code.........................until tonite. CEL on again. And now my X3 is locked up (Filesystem Initializing). I know I had that before and somehow fixed it, but can't remember. Anyone? I'd like to see if i'm throwing the same code......

[onecrazydog]

Just guessing, but it probably has something to do with those corroded terminals...

[CH53Driver]

:doh2:

[Boston Mike]

Just guessing, but it probably has something to do with those corroded terminals...

I hope you don't sleep soundly Stacey. :shades:

[onecrazydog]

I hope you don't sleep soundly Stacey. :shades:


I must sleep pretty sound, during one of my sleepwalking incidents I apparently gave an old room mate a black eye and bleeding nose and didn't remember any of it the next day...

[CH53Driver]

I hope you don't sleep soundly Stacey. :shades:

Why? Are you going to attack him with corroded battery terminals in the middle of the night?

[Birdman]

I must sleep pretty sound, during one of my sleepwalking incidents I apparently gave an old room mate a black eye and bleeding nose and didn't remember any of it the next day...

LOL must have been dreaming about playing Hockey...:giggle:

[CH53Driver]

LOL must have been dreaming about playing Hockey...:giggle:

Good thing I'm not sleeping in that house. Between the Corroded Battery Midnight Stalker and the Sleepwalking Hockey Player it could make for some interesting nights.

[JTB]

Good thing I'm not sleeping in that house. Between the Corroded Battery Midnight Stalker and the Sleepwalking Hockey Player it could make for some interesting nights as both would really turn me on. :grin:


WTH!? :surprised:

[Birdman]

Good thing I'm not sleeping in that house. Between the Corroded Battery Midnight Stalker and the Sleepwalking Hockey Player it could make for some interesting nights.

:hilarious:....I'm sure there will be some great strories to be told after this weekend no doubt.

[CH53Driver]

WTH!? :surprised:

:trouble:

[onecrazydog]

LOL must have been dreaming about playing Hockey...:giggle:


:rofl3:

[onecrazydog]

Good thing I'm not sleeping in that house. Between the Corroded Battery Midnight Stalker and the Sleepwalking Hockey Player it could make for some interesting nights.


:sneaking2:

[Joe G]

:backontopic:

[JTB]

:backontopic:



http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/ny/10-27-kettle44.jpg

[Birdman]

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/ny/10-27-kettle44.jpg

:giggle:

[Joe G]

:hey2:



:wasntme: (this time... :hide:)

[Boston Mike]

I must sleep pretty sound, during one of my sleepwalking incidents I apparently gave an old room mate a black eye and bleeding nose and didn't remember any of it the next day...

Was it wi your leftor right? I want to be sure I have Joe in the proper position.......

[CH53Driver]

Was it wi your leftor right? I want to be sure I have Joe in the proper position so that way I can attack when he's passed out.......

:wow2:

[Boston Mike]

So, my latest code what actually a P0442 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0442 ). Cleared it and it hasn't come back yet.

[Birdman]

So, my latest code what actually a P0442 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0442 ). Cleared it and it hasn't come back yet.

Must have been caused by all those acid fumes coming from those battery connections before you cleaned them off.......

[Boston Mike]

Must have been caused by all those acid fumes coming from those battery connections before you cleaned them off.......

Umm.......tech thread?

[Birdman]

Umm.......tech thread?

A code P0442 most likely means one or more of the following has happened:

A loose or improperly affixed gas cap
A non-conforming gas cap (i.e. not factory/original brand)
A small leak/hole in a fuel vapor hose/tube resulting in sucking in harmful fumes
Other small leak in EVAP system
Faulty vent o-ring seal

With a P0442, the most common repair is to:

Remove and reinstall the gas cap, clear the codes, and drive for a day and see if the codes come back.
Otherwise, replace the gas cap, or
Inspect the EVAP system for cuts/holes in tubes/hoses
Clean Battery terminals to prevent harmful fumes

[Joe G]

A code P0442 most likely means one or more of the following has happened:

A loose or improperly affixed gas cap
A non-conforming gas cap (i.e. not factory/original brand)
A small leak/hole in a fuel vapor hose/tube resulting in sucking in harmful fumes
Other small leak in EVAP system
Faulty vent o-ring seal

With a P0442, the most common repair is to:

Remove and reinstall the gas cap, clear the codes, and drive for a day and see if the codes come back.
Otherwise, replace the gas cap, or
Inspect the EVAP system for cuts/holes in tubes/hoses
Clean Battery terminals to prevent harmful fumes

:haha:

[CH53Driver]

:haha::haha:

[68fastback]

:spitcopy: :haha:

[Boston Mike]

A code P0442 most likely means one or more of the following has happened:

A loose or improperly affixed gas cap
A non-conforming gas cap (i.e. not factory/original brand)
A small leak/hole in a fuel vapor hose/tube resulting in sucking in harmful fumes
Other small leak in EVAP system
Faulty vent o-ring seal

With a P0442, the most common repair is to:

Remove and reinstall the gas cap, clear the codes, and drive for a day and see if the codes come back.
Otherwise, replace the gas cap, or
Inspect the EVAP system for cuts/holes in tubes/hoses
Clean Battery terminals to prevent harmful fumes

I'm starting to understand TG more and more. :nonono:

[ItalianStallion]

A code P0442 most likely means one or more of the following has happened:

A loose or improperly affixed gas cap
A non-conforming gas cap (i.e. not factory/original brand)
A small leak/hole in a fuel vapor hose/tube resulting in sucking in harmful fumes
Other small leak in EVAP system
Faulty vent o-ring seal

With a P0442, the most common repair is to:

Remove and reinstall the gas cap, clear the codes, and drive for a day and see if the codes come back.
Otherwise, replace the gas cap, or
Inspect the EVAP system for cuts/holes in tubes/hoses
Clean Battery terminals to prevent harmful fumes


Seems like sound advice, Get er straightened out before ShelbyFest...you gonna be there ?


IS

[Boston Mike]

Seems like sound advice, Get er straightened out before ShelbyFest...you gonna be there ?


IS

I will be, but the dirty battery terminals monkey-mobile won't be. I leave early Tuesday am for an 8 night family vacation in FLA, so I need to be back early enough on Sunday to help finish packing, etc, so a 8 hour drive just wasn't in play for me this year. Plus, the day away (Friday) will make it easy to get some basics done (brakes, suspension tightening, etc) while not needing access to the car.

The code has already been resolved. We're guessing it had to do with the gas cap, although it was on tight and normal, so not sure why. We cleared the code last week and so far no issues at all. Birdy et al are just busting my chops about the battery. I think they're just jealous that I get to drive mine every day. :tease2:

[Shlbylvr]

I'm starting to understand TG more and more. :nonono:

Shame.

[Boston Mike]

Well, my original P0420 code showed up again.............:nonono:

So, I guess could be bad gas again...............;blurg: