Torque Management

[Tommy Gun]

What exactly is 'torque management' in a tune and why would a tune be offered w/ 'reduced torque management' or 'no torque management' ?

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[Tommy Gun]

:popcorn:

[The Bone]

That may have something to do with launch control. In engines with a sharp torque curve it may be able to flatten it out a bit. Just a guess

[68fastback]

I think ecoboost uses torque management to control when/how much torque the engine can make ...especially at lower revs ...might be better for driveability and/or emissions to let the engine/turbos spool before trying to 'use' boost, etc ...especially when the tranny characteristics, turbos and a TiVCT engine are all being interactively managed in real-time for a particular driving/performance profile. That'd be my guess -lol.

[Tommy Gun]

Why would a tune be offered w/ no torque management then?

[Joe G]

Why would a tune be offered w/ no torque management then?

Maybe because the tuner can't figure out Ford's system and is hacking away at a complicated tune (like the TiVct is)??

[Tommy Gun]

That is one of my concerns.

[Joe G]

:sneaking2:

[Joe G]

If you screw up CP's car, she WILL keel you. :yes:

[Tommy Gun]

I doubt I'll do anything, just trying to keep myself from going crazy being so bored.

[Joe G]

... just trying to keep myself from going crazy being so bored.

You could come to a fun event called Shelbyfest in a few months and see some of your friends. :look:

[Tommy Gun]

I need something now.

Went for a ride for a hour and a half today in the 500 and it didn't help.

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[Joe G]

I need something now.

Went for a ride for a hour and a half today in the 500 and it didn't help.

.

Fly to MN and help me on the 68 Mustang.

:grin:

[Tommy Gun]

Too cold, too much snow.

Snow is depressing.

[CH53Driver]

Too cold, too much snow.

Snow is depressing.

I'm sure Joe would snuggle with you.

[Joe G]

:doh2:

I give up.

[Tommy Gun]

Nice thread. :nonono:

.

[Joe G]

Nice thread. :nonono:

.

Time for some cleanup. :mop:

[68fastback]

Why would a tune be offered w/ no torque management then?

Possibly they're implying that they're delivering the full torque potential (i.e. torque management 'removed') ...maybe something like that ...I'm just guessing tho --have no idea what they mean. I might also mean that torque managment during shifts is removed since factory stock tunes often do stuff like that with both sticks and automatics. Are we talking about the SHO still?

[JTB]

If you screw up CP's car, she WILL keel you. :yes:


I don't think Granny will ever lend TG her GT500 again, if he screwed up CPs car.

[68fastback]

lol - Mental images of the The Little Old Lady From Pasadena come to mind ;-)

[Joe G]

lol - Mental images of the The Little Old Lady From Pasadena come to mind ;-)

www.GrannyGoneWild.com (http://www.GrannyGoneWild.com) :bunny:




:yikes:

[tekheavy]

MC's gonna be busy. :nonono:

[Tommy Gun]

Possibly they're implying that they're delivering the full torque potential (i.e. torque management 'removed') ...maybe something like that ...I'm just guessing tho --have no idea what they mean. I might also mean that torque managment during shifts is removed since factory stock tunes often do stuff like that with both sticks and automatics. Are we talking about the SHO still?


Yes, these are tunes for the SHO.

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=2046

[68fastback]

Yes, these are tunes for the SHO.

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=2046

Ah ...I see! "...transmission modifications with reduced torque management."


Ok, I think I'm on the right track then in posts 4 and 19.

[Tommy Gun]

Oh so this is just for the transmission you think?

Not an engine management?

[68fastback]

No, I think it's the engine but in conjunction with the tranny shifting. Engine management has been used in the past with automatics to effect smoother shifts and with sticks to ease synchro wear and possiby parts breakage potential too. The '01 Cobra used it (and likely subsequent ones too). With the SHO 3.5EB, it can rev so fast that they may be using it to permit a more 'refined' (leisurely) shift rather than having to 'quench' the revs at WOT (or even not at WOT) with a super-harsh/fast shift alone.

I do recall a Ford EB patent that talks about coordination of engine rpm, transmission shift time and turbo waste-gate management to reduce shift harshness and fuel-wasting rpm spikes without loosing turbo spool rpm, etc. ...the notion was that the most efficient (fuel) shift brings rpm only *down* to the next gear, gradually and woth no spike. I'm thnking this is what's being reduced or removed. Even not at WOT, there's prolly less fuel used to have engine torque instantly reduced to make it easier/smoother for the tranny to 'quench' the shift.

I'm guessing this is what they're playing with (removing or reducing that factory torque reduction on shifting) since there's performance gains to be had with a fast shift alone grabbing the next gear as quickly as possible to quench the rev difference between gears. Also more stress on the tranny, but that's how you go faster.

[Tommy Gun]

Must be pretty tricky w/ a trans that is both an Auto and a manual.

The SHO is an auto, but has paddle shifters for full manual shifting if you so choose.

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[Tommy Gun]

See if this works...


4485

[Tommy Gun]

Seems good power doesn't even come on til after 3000 rpm?

And what might the peaks at the beginning be?

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[68fastback]

Seems good power doesn't even come on til after 3000 rpm?

And what might the peaks at the beginning be?

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It's just a poorly plotted pull ...almost embarassing to see a graph like that from Livernois ...ditto the curve-back at the top end. They started the pull to high and then didn't click it off until after trailing throttle on top :doh2:

The EcoBoost makes 80% peak torque by 1500 rpm, so why they started the pull so high is curious, unless his mods hurt the low end (shouldn't tho) -- probably ust carelessness.

That puppy is so nosed-over by 5200 rpm!! ...not surprising since all the torque is forced down lower where it's so nice and flat ...so seems to say those tiny turbos are just tapped out at 5200 or so.

Still very impressive for a little V6.

I wonder how much additional boost they get in their stage-3 ...probably by just tweaking the waste-gate because the chart seems to say they have no more to give.

[Vette Killer]

It's just a poorly plotted pull ...almost embarassing to see a graph like that from Livernois ...ditto the curve-back at the top end. They started the pull to high and then didn't click it off until after trailing throttle on top :doh2:

The EcoBoost makes 80% peak torque by 1500 rpm, so why they started the pull so high is curious, unless his mods hurt the low end (shouldn't tho) -- probably ust carelessness.

That puppy is so nosed-over by 5200 rpm!! ...not surprising since all the torque is forced down lower where it's so nice and flat ...so seems to say those tiny turbos are just tapped out at 5200 or so.

Still very impressive for a little V6.

I wonder how much additional boost they get in their stage-3 ...probably by just tweaking the waste-gate because the chart seems to say they have no more to give.

+1.....can't believe they published that rather than spread the sample points to smooth the curve....looks like someone with Tourettes being asked to draw a straight line freehand....

[Tommy Gun]

It was sent to me, not posted.

I thought something was wrong.

I'll ask more about it.

I've never seen a dyno sheet so sloppy.

.

[JTB]

See if this works...


4485


What is that?

Looks like these clowns know as much about the dyno as they do about Closed Roads. :doh2:

[Tommy Gun]

Okay I responded to the email about why the Dyno looks like it does.

I am told that the dyno 'looks' rough because it is an AWD dyno run .

As far as why it started so late and falls on it's face at 5200 rpm I am waiting on an answer from the shop tuner who is out.


I am told that the shop Vice Pres and tuner of these cars is Dan Millen and a multiple sanctioning body world record holder in the ADRL, NMCA, NMRA, and World Ford Challenge.


I never heard of him, but here is some stuff on him.


http://www.millenracing.com/team.html

http://www.dragzine.com/features/interviews/dan-millen-interview/

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[Tommy Gun]

Here's how Millen goes to lunch. :rofl3:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19w-iZuPcEE&feature=player_embedded

[Alloy Dave]

There's no need for that. :nonono:

[JTB]

Here's how Millen goes to lunch. :rofl3:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19w-iZuPcEE&feature=player_embedded

I can't believe that was over 7 mins long....I nodded off around the 3:05 mark. :sleeping:

That dude tried that here :canada:, that Dragster would be Property of the Crown within minutes...:cop2:

[68fastback]

The dyno charts on the website all have a spike at the beginning and the videos have a disclaimer that no peak numbers are stated because the spike could be misleading :doh2: ...why is the spike there then? Maybe it's someting indiginous to a 4WD DynoJet?

[JTB]

The dyno charts on the website all have a spike at the beginning and the videos have a disclaimer that no peak numbers are stated because the spike could be misleading :doh2: ...why is the spike there then? Maybe it's someting indiginous to a 4WD DynoJet?

:spitcopy:

[Tommy Gun]

I was told that the AWD Dyno has a belt between the 2 rollers that gives some false readings on cars and the not so smooth run file.

I'll have to ask my local dyno guy because he has a AWD dyno also.

This is a top-of-the-line facility so I would think they are not selling me a line.

I just don't know because I have never seen a AWD dyno run file.

[King Cobra]

I was told that the AWD Dyno has a belt between the 2 rollers that gives some false readings on cars and the not so smooth run file.

I'll have to ask my local dyno guy because he has a AWD dyno also.

This is a top-of-the-line facility so I would think they are not selling me a line.

I just don't know because I have never seen a AWD dyno run file.


+1......Pros for sure!

[Birdman]

I was told that the AWD Dyno has a belt between the 2 rollers that gives some false readings on cars and the not so smooth run file.

I'll have to ask my local dyno guy because he has a AWD dyno also.

This is a top-of-the-line facility so I would think they are not selling me a line.

I just don't know because I have never seen a AWD dyno run file.


TG before you buy anything from Livernois talk to me first....

A 4wDyno result is usually a bit lower reading than a 2w dyno but the smoothness of the graph should not be any different......:nonono:

Torque management is there to mainly protect the transmission especially in an automatic. It can also be used to smooth the shifting points too but in the SHO it is there to protect the transmission (especially the O/D) from being burned up from the power that the EcoBoost is capable of. Ford accomplishes this by closing the throttle as well as reducing timing (even though you think it is in full throttle it really isn't).
It can also be used for "launch control" (wheel slippage) like it does somewhat on the Mustang GT but that is not the main reason it is used. In a manual transmission it is used to save the clutch and thus the scyncros as well.

[Tommy Gun]

TG before you buy anything from Livernois talk to me first....

A 4wDyno result is usually a bit lower reading than a 2w dyno but the smoothness of the graph should not be any different......:nonono:

Torque management is there to mainly protect the transmission especially in an automatic. It can also be used to smooth the shifting points too but in the SHO it is there to protect the transmission (especially the O/D) from being burned up from the power that the EcoBoost is capable of. Ford accomplishes this by closing the throttle as well as reducing timing (even though you think it is in full throttle it really isn't).
It can also be used for "launch control" (wheel slippage) like it does somewhat on the Mustang GT but that is not the main reason it is used. In a manual transmission it is used to save the clutch and thus the scyncros as well.



Just a topic for discussion, I'm not buying anything.


Saving my money for an Aluminator for the track car. :look:




Wish I had money to start now and get free shipping. :grin:

http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/dagostino-racing-inc/152028-ford-racing-aluminator-sale.html

[Joe G]

Wish I had money to start now and get free shipping. :grin:

http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/dagostino-racing-inc/152028-ford-racing-aluminator-sale.html

Most of the time Ford Racing will ship it direct and it's free because it's over a certain $ amount.















Another item you won't buy from your best friend me. :nonono:

[68fastback]

Do 2V heads fit on that?

[Tommy Gun]

Most of the time Ford Racing will ship it direct and it's free because it's over a certain $ amount.















Another item you won't buy from your best friend me. :nonono:


Do 2V heads fit on that?


Here is what I believe is the right part number for the 2V version. M 6009-A46SC

I have found one for $3550 shipped. Joe? :waiting:


My question now is what is the weak point of my current motor w/ a S/C on it? The heads or the bottom end?

I think I've heard guys say they run the 2V motors at the drag strip up to 7000 rpm, but not stock bottom end?

[Joe G]

Checking...

[68fastback]

...nice ...low-compression, so you can turn up the boost and a bit more ;-) :banana:

[Tommy Gun]

:waiting2:

[Joe G]

:waiting2:

CHECK YOUR PM's!!

:rant:

[Tommy Gun]

6 pages and no answer. :popcorn:

[68fastback]

Just ask your tuner :shades:

===

Short answer: as long as they're set above actual torque curve you're fine.

Longer answer: torque management is essentially setting torque curve limits (torque tables) for a given tune. If you mod the engine to make a lot more grunt the torque limits must be raised to permit more torque. Ford uses them as a safety to protect the engine/drivetrain -- what a given tune should not be exceeding -- with some headway, etc.

I'll leave whether you want or need them or not and how they might be used for mischief or not for various engine mods to wild speculation since any answer that can be imagined will be both completely correct and dead-wrong depending on the motivation and/or assumptions -- stated or otherwise. :shades:

[Tommy Gun]

So what tells it what torque you are at?

what sensors would contribute in equating such a thing?

[Gr8snkbite]

So what tells it what torque you are at?

what sensors would contribute in equating such a thing?

http://vehicle.berkeley.edu/Publications/EC/lamberson_ms_thesis.pdf


Torque Management (TM) is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. TM is performed for the following reasons:

1. To prevent overstress of the powertrain components.
2. To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults.
3. To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40%.
4. To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers.

The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque.

- Air/Fuel ratio
- Mass Air Flow (MAF)
- Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
- Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
- Spark Advance
- Engine Speed
- Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
- A/C Clutch Status

The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.

The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be expected:

- During transmission upshifts and downshifts
- Heavy acceleration from a standing start
- The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
- When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.

The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases. The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7, in case of an abusive maneuver.

[68fastback]

[edit:] good find, Keith! Guess I was positng while you were.

---


So what tells it what torque you are at?

what sensors would contribute in equating such a thing?

The MAF is the anchor of all load calculations ...load is a function of airflow.

[Joe G]

Good tech post, Keith. Rep points for you! :tiphat:

[Tommy Gun]

Cool. That definitely answered my question....and in terms I can actually understand. :tiphat2:

[Gr8snkbite]

:tiphat2:

All in a days work.....:grin:

[68fastback]

Cool. That definitely answered my question....and in terms I can actually understand. :tiphat2:

You do realize that google existed back on 2-6-11, right? :hiding: ;-)

[Gr8snkbite]

:haha:

[68fastback]

:giggle:

[Tommy Gun]

You do realize that google existed back on 2-6-11, right? :hiding: ;-)


Im a member of Stangsunited, never signed up on the Google forum.

if Google has all the answers, is there a reason I should stay here for any tech info?

[Highwayman]

Im a member of Stangsunited, never signed up on the Google forum.

if Google has all the answers, is there a reason I should stay here for any tech info?

YES, this is where the information you need is found and displayed by others in terms you usually can understand without having to do the searching yourself. This would be known as the backbone of this forum and the members here. An example would be where to find certian looking birdfeeders :tease2:

[68fastback]

:giggle:

...there are specialized forums for everyone's needs (http://forum.dofus.com/en) :shades: -lol

[68fastback]

Im a member of Stangsunited, never signed up on the Google forum.

if Google has all the answers, is there a reason I should stay here for any tech info?

No need to sign up, just click on one of these (http://www.thesearchenginelist.com/)and type your question :shades:

....then after you've learned something new that you were interested in, just start a thread and share it with your friends :hiding: easy peasy ;-)

[Tommy Gun]

You're mocking me, aren't you? :sherriff:

[Joe G]

..

[Tommy Gun]

:ban:

[68fastback]

You're mocking me, aren't you? :sherriff:

lol -- nah ...just teasing :tease:

:biggrin: