PDA

View Full Version : Warning !! Before you change that tune read this!



Birdman
04-08-2011, 11:13 PM
Danger don’t change that tune until you read this!

Due to the fact that many Mustang owners are modifying their cars today to the point of taking the HP, fuel and timing demands well past the stock calibrations many of these cars now require professional tuning.

The problem the Mustang community is facing is finding a tuner who knows and understands how to tune a mass air car properly and does it the way FMCO does it.

Unfortunately for the community today outside of Ford Racing and those who work closely with Ford Racing there are very few tuners if any out there that do tune correctly which is why I felt it necessary to post this warning to all!

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z234/svtbird91/news%20info/127cai.jpg


MAF basics By Jim LaRocca


Some basic info about MAF and MAF transfer curves.


Understanding a mass air meter and why it so critical to have the correct meter curve in a tune.

This is where 99 percent of the tuners get themselves in trouble and it all starts from step one.(The Mass Air Meter and Meter Curve) Lets not even worry about the rest of the tune (that's a completely different story)the first and most important step all starts here.

The MAF meter is the first point where air enters the motor and every calculation and I mean every calculation the computer does will depend on that being a actual and real measurement. (Load, Idle,part throttle, WOT, A/F, timing, torque calculations ,etc. all depend on it)


The main purpose of a Mass air meter is to measure airflow.
The Meter operates in a range from 0-5volts
5 volts being the highest it could read

Every voltage point from 0-5volts for a given mass air meter and sensor represents an actual air flow measurement.

So if you put a MAF meter housing with a sensor on a flow bench you can obtain a mass air transfer function for that given meter sensor combo.(A mass air meter will only work correctly/measure correctly if these values are accurate)
So lets say this is the data you obtained after flowing the meter on a flow bench.(And by the way this is exactly how Ford does their mass air meters and curves)

example
0 volts = 0 airflow
1 volt = 500 CFM
2 volts =800CFm
3 Volts =1200 cfm
4 volts = 1500 cfm
5 volts =1800CFM
every voltage point in-between those valves will also equal a CFM valve somewhere between them .(Just using whole numbers for this example.)

If you needed A MAF meter to measure more CFM, there is two ways to do it correctly.
One use a different sensor that has a different range in the same housing.
Two use the same sensor but increase the size of the housing

Another note since CFM is a direct relation to HP this is how a computer can/will calculate the torque the motor is making at a given RPM.(one way how torque management works/is calculated)

It takes 1.5 CFM to make 1 hp

Knowing this, you can take a mass air voltage/reading from your MAF and calculate how much HP your engine is making.(But again only if you know the meter and meter curve is accurate)
Believe it or not this is how top fuel teams figure out how much HP their engines make(Hard to dyno an engine making 5000hp plus HP, no dyno can really read that high, until maybe the last couple of years) They measure how much CFM the engine is moving and then calculated that into HP


Now going back to one of my first statement's that 99 percent of the tuners get themselves in trouble here and cause all kinds of issues ranging from bad startups, pinging, driveabilty issues, idle issues etc.
Here is why

Most tuners out there were TAUGHT.... to adjust the A/F ratio by moving the transfer curve in the tune. (Will it change an A/F ratio it sure will...........) They really don't understand how a mass air system works. (If they did they would NEVER do this) Its really a shame because most tuners feel this is the correct way to tune.(they really believe they are tuning correctly)
Why ... again because this is the way they were shown. Since they were shown that, it has to be correct way. They were never actually shown or understand what that mass air meter is doing or suppose to do.

They were also taught to create a mass air curve from scratch or adjust a curve by datalogging short terms or using an A/F gauge to tweak or enter a value in the curve depending on the short term voltage or the a/f ratio measured coming out the tailpipe.
They will move a curve up or down until they get the a/f ratio they are looking to obtain.

So lets see why this is the wrong way of doing things
Lets look at the example data above created from a MAF metering using a flow bench.

Lets take the 2 volt measurement which equals 800 CFM (which we know is a real and actual air flow measurement for this example)

We are driving our car and the mass air meter is at 2 volts.
OK the computer will take that 2 volts reading and start calculating how much to open the injector to hit a target A/F, referencing the air fuel ratio target map. (If the injector slopes and all are correct in the tune and depending on your fuel pumps/system etc. whatever you have in your target a/f will be what you will obtain out the tailpipe)

It will also look/calculate load, timing maps etc. from this measurement but lets just look at the A/F ratio here.

If for some reason (and can be many) the target a/f is suppose to be 12 to1 and 10 to 1 is coming out the tailpipe.

What the tuner will do instead of adjusting the correct parameters is they will take the 800 CFM value at 2 volts and make it a smaller CFM value/ number in the maf curve to trick the engine in thinking its moving less air.
If the engine thinks its moving less air it will calculate the injector not to open as much delivering less fuel, which will cause that 10.1 A/F to hit the 12.1 A/f that is targeted.

So what they do and how they tune, is by looking at or only caring only about the A/F ratio.
Every other calculation done at that point by the computer will be wrong..... why ....................because it is thinking it is moving less air than it really is now!!!! This could potentially be very detrimental to the engine and even lead to catastrophic engine failure especially on highly modified engines.

This is a real basic and simple example.
I hope this helps your understanding of why and how important it is to really know what that mass air meter is measuring and what the MAF curve does in the tune.

A few years ago it was more forgiving when the drive by wire didn't exist to tune by moving or creating a MAF curve the wrong way.

Drive by wire and or highly modified cars will only amplify issues when a car is tuned with an inaccurate MAF or MAF curve.

There are many more other unintended negative affects that will occur as a result of a tuner who changes a known MAF curve that has been established on a professional flow bench,( like the one Ford uses) for the purpose of adjusting air/fuel but I’ll leave that for another day.


Some interesting reading here about tuning and Maf calibration.
Ford Racing parts catalog ….Read page 154 bottom paragraph

page 220 explains a little about the maf and its calibration
http://www.fordracingparts.com/2011-catalog/

CH53Driver
04-08-2011, 11:14 PM
Good info George! :wtg:

ati
04-08-2011, 11:40 PM
Thanks George and Thanks Jim. Good info!


:reading:

Gr8snkbite
04-09-2011, 12:09 AM
:wtg:

Cheftjpeck
04-09-2011, 12:30 AM
great info!!!!

Quagmire
04-12-2011, 07:28 PM
Good read, thank you!

So, since we know the wrong way to tune, what is the right way? Edit the air/fuel ratio target map?

Gr8snkbite
04-12-2011, 08:11 PM
Good read, thank you!

So, since we know the wrong way to tune, what is the right way? Edit the air/fuel ratio target map?

use Tasca...

Birdman
04-12-2011, 10:53 PM
Good read, thank you!

So, since we know the wrong way to tune, what is the right way? Edit the air/fuel ratio target map?

First make sure you run stay away from any tuner who tunes by changing or manipulating the MAF transfer functions.

2nd Choose a tuner who either has the proper meter curve for your particular MAF/CAI combo or knows where to get it flowed on a professional flow bench so he can then have that info and once he does he loads and locks it in the tune and never changes it.

That tuner will then know what to do to after that to get the tune right...once he knows the MAF meter curve is 100% correct all other changes to things like injector pulse width, Inj slope, timing, fuel pressures etc…. will reflect true and accurate changes to each and every part of the tune like idle, part throttle and wide open throttle.

Your target air fuels should not have to be changed there are other things in the tune that your tuner can change to get things right and the meter curve isn’t one of them.

For those of you with the 2011's and newer having the correct MAF meter curve is even more critical because they use a less forgiving and more accurate frequency based meter not a voltage based meter like the earlier cars.

JTB
04-13-2011, 01:15 AM
First make sure you run stay away from any tuner who tunes by changing or manipulating the MAF transfer functions.

2nd Choose a tuner who either has the proper meter curve for your particular MAF/CAI combo or knows where to get it flowed on a professional flow bench so he can then have that info and once he does he loads and locks it in the tune and never changes it.

That tuner will then know what to do to after that to get the tune right...once he knows the MAF meter curve is 100% correct all other changes to things like injector pulse width, Inj slope, timing, fuel pressures etc…. will reflect true and accurate changes to each and every part of the tune like idle, part throttle and wide open throttle.

Your target air fuels should not have to be changed there are other things in the tune that your tuner can change to get things right and the meter curve isn’t one of them.

For those of you with the 2011's and newer having the correct MAF meter curve is even more critical because they use a less forgiving and more accurate frequency based meter not a voltage based meter like the earlier cars.

Great info as usually Bird. This is clearly a very complicated, technical process that continues to get even more arduous with the newer cars.

68fastback
04-13-2011, 03:06 AM
...the birdy is wise :yes:

5412

Quagmire
04-13-2011, 01:28 PM
First make sure you run stay away from any tuner who tunes by changing or manipulating the MAF transfer functions.

2nd Choose a tuner who either has the proper meter curve for your particular MAF/CAI combo or knows where to get it flowed on a professional flow bench so he can then have that info and once he does he loads and locks it in the tune and never changes it.

That tuner will then know what to do to after that to get the tune right...once he knows the MAF meter curve is 100% correct all other changes to things like injector pulse width, Inj slope, timing, fuel pressures etc…. will reflect true and accurate changes to each and every part of the tune like idle, part throttle and wide open throttle.

Your target air fuels should not have to be changed there are other things in the tune that your tuner can change to get things right and the meter curve isn’t one of them.

For those of you with the 2011's and newer having the correct MAF meter curve is even more critical because they use a less forgiving and more accurate frequency based meter not a voltage based meter like the earlier cars.

Great info, thank you.

I've already resolved to stick with an FRPP tune (thanks to earlier comments on this subject by yourself and others), but I'm really disappointed that FRPP has not released a TVS+Tune package for the 2011 GT500. From comments I've read here, it seems live a TVS and a tune from Tasca is my best shot at this time.

Thanks!

blackshelby
04-13-2011, 04:14 PM
Great info, thank you.

I've already resolved to stick with an FRPP tune (thanks to earlier comments on this subject by yourself and others), but I'm really disappointed that FRPP has not released a TVS+Tune package for the 2011 GT500. From comments I've read here, it seems live a TVS and a tune from Tasca is my best shot at this time.

Thanks!


A TVS package for the 2011 is coming/ will be released from TASCA Ford real soon....really soon. :yay:

Quagmire
04-13-2011, 04:20 PM
A TVS package for the 2011 is coming/ will be released from TASCA Ford real soon....really soon. :yay:

Very cool, thanks!!

Boston Mike
04-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Hmmmm.......I wonder what kind of package pricing I can get on a TVS/long tubes/FRPP CAI/tune to go with my current L&M 66.........................

KC BadCat
04-13-2011, 05:41 PM
ok....lets tackle this from a pragmatic view.......starting with the presumption that you want to tune correctly per the above......

1. do any of the MAF/CAI manufacturers/sellers have and provide a meter curve? How can a consumer find out if this info is public for any particular unit system. (I am assuming here that curve is developed using filter and housing/maf/sensor/tube into TB)

2. If this info is not public, how do you get a curve...it appears that many if not most tuners are not obtaining this curve. Do we know of any tuners that will do this for a consumer? What kind of cost? Do you have to send them your unit to have them flow?

3. What tuners out there subscribe to the use of a curve as the essential foundation? Other than learning how to tune yourself, a typical consumer has to come up with someone to do this.....even if a good tuner believes you must use this process, go back to #1 and #2 above....lots of MAF/CAI combos out there......do we have to find a tuner and then purchase the sole unit that they have curve data for? If no one is in your area, do you have to drive your car to them (eg TASCA)?

My educational foundation is chemical engineering, which includes fluid flow courses, and I have no problem accepting the technical need for a maf/cai curve as a essential foundation of a perfect tune....but the devil is in the details, and figuring out when a maf/cai does not present a typical curve and requires its own flow testing is not something most are prepared to deal with. So for most of us the issue really comes down to "I have an existing maf/cai system and tune, now what the heck do I do?" Not trying to beat on anyone or stir things up, but for most this is useful information on an academic basis, but not useful for implementation. What we really need to do is now bridge the issue so that owners can actually take actions that will lead to accurate tuning.

I would be most interested to see if others have the same feelings, and most importantly, if any of the members with technical expertise have more specific ideas for action for the typical owner.....thanks in advance...John

68fastback
04-13-2011, 07:55 PM
ok....lets tackle this from a pragmatic view.......starting with the presumption that you want to tune correctly per the above......

1. do any of the MAF/CAI manufacturers/sellers have and provide a meter curve? How can a consumer find out if this info is public for any particular unit system. (I am assuming here that curve is developed using filter and housing/maf/sensor/tube into TB)

2. If this info is not public, how do you get a curve...it appears that many if not most tuners are not obtaining this curve. Do we know of any tuners that will do this for a consumer? What kind of cost? Do you have to send them your unit to have them flow?

3. What tuners out there subscribe to the use of a curve as the essential foundation? Other than learning how to tune yourself, a typical consumer has to come up with someone to do this.....even if a good tuner believes you must use this process, go back to #1 and #2 above....lots of MAF/CAI combos out there......do we have to find a tuner and then purchase the sole unit that they have curve data for? If no one is in your area, do you have to drive your car to them (eg TASCA)?

My educational foundation is chemical engineering, which includes fluid flow courses, and I have no problem accepting the technical need for a maf/cai curve as a essential foundation of a perfect tune....but the devil is in the details, and figuring out when a maf/cai does not present a typical curve and requires its own flow testing is not something most are prepared to deal with. So for most of us the issue really comes down to "I have an existing maf/cai system and tune, now what the heck do I do?" Not trying to beat on anyone or stir things up, but for most this is useful information on an academic basis, but not useful for implementation. What we really need to do is now bridge the issue so that owners can actually take actions that will lead to accurate tuning.

I would be most interested to see if others have the same feelings, and most importantly, if any of the members with technical expertise have more specific ideas for action for the typical owner.....thanks in advance...John

1) ...only the MAF tube with the sensor inserted needs to be flowed. Anything upstream (e.g. filter) only affects *how much* flow the engine sees but does not affect the accuracy of a properly flowed MAF across it's flow range.. The CJ MAFs are flowed for sure. Unfortunately most tuners use exsting curve functions (possibly with other sensors) and then scale/adjust them for different sensors/MAFs based on target A/Fs :yikes: ...that's where the problems start since everything downstream in the tune is then effectively 'currupted' ...garbage-in/garbage-out.

2) ...companys like PMAS (Professional Mass Air systems) have the ability to natively flow (no scaling) anthing these engines can handle -- they do it for pro racers al lthe time. Only the meter-in-tube needs to be flowed. Then the [mathematical] curve that relates that flow range to the 0-5v ECU voltage range can be created. That accurate mapping offlow-voltage is the key and is what's called the Mass Air transfer curve/function -- it's a tiny piece of the overall calibration but affects so much because nearly *everything* in a mass air managed engine depends on that curve being 100% accurage to determine when and where it dynamically pops into/out-of many, many control-calibration tables (and the paths it takes through them) as you run our engine.

3) Only the MAF gets calibrated -- every tuner subscribes to using the mass-air transfer function because the engine simply won't run (at all) without it and will run poorly if it's just off a bit off from true/accurate flow. The problem is *how* they use it. The *only* correct/proper factory-engineered way is to base the curve's calibaraion on dead-nuts accurate flow -- and then it *never* gets changed for that MAF sensor and MAF tube combination (i.e. the MAF). The improper way is to get it close enough (sometimes through trial and error and sometimes based on scaling/estimating working off an existing curve/sensor -- yikes!! -- really!) to get the engine to run and then tweak the short-terms to fake it out to hit 'target' A/Fs, with the result of inducing inacurrate 'pathing' through those many many tables that are especially critical at WOT (where being off a couple % on a table-pop can be the diff between nice-engine and scrap-metal), but also affect closed-loop cruise, idle, etc. ...and to address MILs, you can turn off most all the safetys that produce them, etc -yikes!- ...'nough said.

This dangerous tweaking practice grew out of a long legacy of 'approximate' tuning with it's roots back in the days of Speed-density engine management (an widely-used but inferior pre-cursor of Ford's Mass-air engine management) back when Ford's calibration methods were still being decifered/hacked by many racers (blackshelby was one of those who was at the forefront of deciphering Ford's methods 20+ years ago ...which is why he knows how it goes -lol). While those days are mostly gone, the 'addiction' of tweaking has lived on -- I must conclude at this point it's 10% history and 90% interlock of the customer to the tuner. Why? When the MAF is flow-accurate, many mods can be swapped and none of them will affect the MAF so long as it still has meter capacity. When the MAF curve is 'tweaked' to given set-up virtually any change requires re-tweaking (just to get back to a running, but innacurate, calibration) ...if you were a tuner competing for customers and repeat business, you might be inclined to 'play' the characteristics of the latter -- ya think?

John, I only have a 'book' understanding of this since I've never tuned a mass-air car myself, but the principles are indisputable -- the MAF is the heart of engine management. If it's off you're at risk. Of course, there's other ways to hurt an engine (excessive timing on the edge of octane, fake-out devices, etc) but the potentially damaging implications of those just get worse magnified through the distorted lens of a corrupt MAF transfer curve. As a general rule, the further you push to the limits of the engine's combustion engineering, the more critical accurate combustion management becomes, and the greater and more sudden the consequences of it being other than 100% accurate -- and there is *nothing* that affects this more deeply and broadly than an accurate MAF function.

I know I didn't answer all your questions (who has what and how to get it) but the above is trying to explain why/how things are the way they are so you can see why things have lived in the gray shadows for so long. As I've said before, any manufacturer of a MAF tube should be publishing the flow data with the product for the factory sensor and maybe a tested higher-range sensors (e.g the HPX) since they're not all identical in shape so really have to be flow calibrated as part of the tube (MAF) assembly. Tuners can then use that information (and customers should demand that only that flowed data is used in any tune they buy) and even savvy owners who might have Sniper or other software that would let them map the flow to the voltage range, etc. Better still, the MAF tube maker could provide those transfer function curves/maps as well ...but don't hold your breath. Remember, folks can hurt themselves very easily and parts-makers are much happier letting a tuner take that risk for you, etc. That last part is jmo, but seems pretty clear to me it might not be wise having the average owner trying to set-up their own tunes unless they know what they're doing. That's why I say the info should at least be made available to tuners, and the customer should deamnd it's used (vs tweaking) in their tune.

Just some thoughts...

Gr8snkbite
04-13-2011, 08:39 PM
A TVS package for the 2011 is coming/ will be released from TASCA Ford real soon....really soon. :yay:

:yay:

KC BadCat
04-13-2011, 11:16 PM
I guess I am still on first base...I have a jlt 110mm I believe and oem sensor...but going to an HPX....curves are where or how obtained......if there is no answer to this, then what?....

Joe G
04-13-2011, 11:32 PM
I guess I am still on first base...I have a jlt 110mm I believe and oem sensor...but going to an HPX....curves are where or how obtained......if there is no answer to this, then what?....

I had the JLT as well, John.

There wasn't a curve for their MAF... which is why I don't have it anymore.

I'll miss the look of the CAI, but not that tune that I had with it. :weg:

blackshelby
04-13-2011, 11:50 PM
I guess I am still on first base...I have a jlt 110mm I believe and oem sensor...but going to an HPX....curves are where or how obtained......if there is no answer to this, then what?....


Call Tasca for a tune, you will be able to keep it as is or with the HPX sensor.

Birdman
04-13-2011, 11:51 PM
ok....lets tackle this from a pragmatic view.......starting with the presumption that you want to tune correctly per the above......

1. do any of the MAF/CAI manufacturers/sellers have and provide a meter curve? How can a consumer find out if this info is public for any particular unit system. (I am assuming here that curve is developed using filter and housing/maf/sensor/tube into TB)

2. If this info is not public, how do you get a curve...it appears that many if not most tuners are not obtaining this curve. Do we know of any tuners that will do this for a consumer? What kind of cost? Do you have to send them your unit to have them flow?

3. What tuners out there subscribe to the use of a curve as the essential foundation? Other than learning how to tune yourself, a typical consumer has to come up with someone to do this.....even if a good tuner believes you must use this process, go back to #1 and #2 above....lots of MAF/CAI combos out there......do we have to find a tuner and then purchase the sole unit that they have curve data for? If no one is in your area, do you have to drive your car to them (eg TASCA)?

My educational foundation is chemical engineering, which includes fluid flow courses, and I have no problem accepting the technical need for a maf/cai curve as a essential foundation of a perfect tune....but the devil is in the details, and figuring out when a maf/cai does not present a typical curve and requires its own flow testing is not something most are prepared to deal with. So for most of us the issue really comes down to "I have an existing maf/cai system and tune, now what the heck do I do?" Not trying to beat on anyone or stir things up, but for most this is useful information on an academic basis, but not useful for implementation. What we really need to do is now bridge the issue so that owners can actually take actions that will lead to accurate tuning.

I would be most interested to see if others have the same feelings, and most importantly, if any of the members with technical expertise have more specific ideas for action for the typical owner.....thanks in advance...John




Most manufactures do not like to give out this information because they like to sell a tune along with their meter/CAI. For example take a look at the CAI kits from FRPP. The price for their MAF/CAI includes a hand held tuner and a tune included. Inside the tune is the MAF transfer functions for that particular meter which Ford has charted and plotted using a professional flow bench.



(The meter curve is usually done using the housing and sensor. The filter actually plays a key roll in 'smoothing out the air flow before it reaches the sensor but is not necessary for the purpose of plotting air-flow to achieve the curve)



Tuners like Tasca who work directly with Ford Racing often have access to that kind of information. Most tuners including Ford want to protect their tunes and their product info so the hand held they sell comes locked for that reason.



Most aftermarket meters usually include a tune with their meters as well but there is none that I know of that acquire their meter transfer functions using a professional flow bench like Ford uses.



Herein lies the "buyer beware" concerns…… most aftermarket meters/tune have used a car on a dyno and plotted their meter's curve according to the short term fuel trim corrections. You can not trust these transfer functions as being 100% accurate or reliable period.

This can be remedied only if your tuner is one that can take that meter and sensor and knows a company that specializes in flowing and plotting meters that will flow it and plot the meter curve for him. Not all tuners have this capability either nor do they understand it and its importance.…..just sayin.


The cold hard truth is there are very few tuners out there who are tuning these cars correctly. I understand the dilemma this puts the GT500 community in but it’s time people know what the real deal is. Ford knows this too which is why the sell their CAI with their tune…they know it’s right

Gr8snkbite
04-13-2011, 11:54 PM
Thx for the continued education.....:tiphat2:

KC BadCat
04-14-2011, 02:34 AM
Call Tasca for a tune, you will be able to keep it as is or with the HPX sensor.

...thanks for the advice......I was ultimately headed in this direction in my head at least. My point to this post was to stir a conversation beyond letting folks know of the problem...I am kinda a solutions guy........believing that problems and solutions go hand in hand in discussion, with most initial effort going into proving that a problem exists, but bringing solutions into the mix next.

I am not quite sure where I am going next, mod wise......some work is scheduled to be done at the end of the month at shelbyfest.....if this happens I may or may not make additional changes to mods (maybe going to a different CAI/MAF and/or pulley size). I may end up with Jay's 127 mm CAI so I can go back to the oem sensor, and if discharge pressures are beyond my tolerance, pulley size may go up to 2.7 or 2.8 if I can find one piece in those diameters. If not, maybe just go to a oem size lower.

But in all fairness to the tuner I hope will be installing the mods, I will have this conversation with him and see how he incorporates this curve data into his tuning. It may be that he is more than willing to take whatever maf I decide to end with, and develop the curve data for it. Shall be interesting

Again....thanks for the response....John

KC BadCat
04-14-2011, 02:39 AM
Most manufactures do not like to give out this information because they like to sell a tune along with their meter/CAI. For example take a look at the CAI kits from FRPP. The price for their MAF/CAI includes a hand held tuner and a tune included. Inside the tune is the MAF transfer functions for that particular meter which Ford has charted and plotted using a professional flow bench.



(The meter curve is usually done using the housing and sensor. The filter actually plays a key roll in 'smoothing out the air flow before it reaches the sensor but is not necessary for the purpose of plotting air-flow to achieve the curve)



Tuners like Tasca who work directly with Ford Racing often have access to that kind of information. Most tuners including Ford want to protect their tunes and their product info so the hand held they sell comes locked for that reason.



Most aftermarket meters usually include a tune with their meters as well but there is none that I know of that acquire their meter transfer functions using a professional flow bench like Ford uses.



Herein lies the "buyer beware" concerns…… most aftermarket meters/tune have used a car on a dyno and plotted their meter's curve according to the short term fuel trim corrections. You can not trust these transfer functions as being 100% accurate or reliable period.

This can be remedied only if your tuner is one that can take that meter and sensor and knows a company that specializes in flowing and plotting meters that will flow it and plot the meter curve for him. Not all tuners have this capability either nor do they understand it and its importance.…..just sayin.


The cold hard truth is there are very few tuners out there who are tuning these cars correctly. I understand the dilemma this puts the GT500 community in but it’s time people know what the real deal is. Ford knows this too which is why the sell their CAI with their tune…they know it’s right

....as always, you provide good information. I know that I will pursue this process, but am concerned about the majority who just do not know what to do with this issue. I always suspected something odd about my original aftermarket tune since the shop owner mumbled about the short term fuel trims when he reviewed the dyno info a couple of days after the tune was installed.

George....thanks for taking the time to post all of this information.....John

68fastback
04-14-2011, 02:48 AM
...thanks for the advice......I was ultimately headed in this direction in my head at least. My point to this post was to stir a conversation beyond letting folks know of the problem...I am kinda a solutions guy........believing that problems and solutions go hand in hand in discussion, with most initial effort going into proving that a problem exists, but bringing solutions into the mix next.

I am not quite sure where I am going next, mod wise......some work is scheduled to be done at the end of the month at shelbyfest.....if this happens I may or may not make additional changes to mods (maybe going to a different CAI/MAF and/or pulley size). I may end up with Jay's 127 mm CAI so I can go back to the oem sensor, and if discharge pressures are beyond my tolerance, pulley size may go up to 2.7 or 2.8 if I can find one piece in those diameters. If not, maybe just go to a oem size lower.

But in all fairness to the tuner I hope will be installing the mods, I will have this conversation with him and see how he incorporates this curve data into his tuning. It may be that he is more than willing to take whatever maf I decide to end with, and develop the curve data for it. Shall be interesting

Again....thanks for the response....John

He can't develop it. He can either acquire it from another tune that reflects prior flow measurement data, or he can send it out to have it flowed.

Maybe Jim/George can comment, but I'd think the 110 with the stock sensor would have adequate range for your target output. The HPX in the new 127 would be way overkill, I think ...the stock sensor in the 127 would have *plenty* of range, imo.

KC BadCat
04-14-2011, 02:53 AM
He can't develop it. He can either acquire it from another tune that reflects prior flow measurement data, or he can send it out to have it flowed.

Maybe Jim/George can comment, but I'd think the 110 with the stock sensor would have adequate range for your target output. The HPX in the new 127 would be way overkill, I think ...the stock sensor in the 127 would have *plenty* of range, imo.

Dan....the 110 with stock sensor is way under projected flow.....that's why (at least as of tonight) Justin is putting an HPX in it at shelbyfest....If I go to Jay's 127 mm, it will be not only for a bit more flow efficiency, but to allow the use of the oem sensor again....the stock oem sensor provides very good driveability and sensitivity.

68fastback
04-14-2011, 03:04 AM
Dan....the 110 with stock sensor is way under projected flow.....that's why (at least as of tonight) Justin is putting an HPX in it at shelbyfest....If I go to Jay's 127 mm, it will be not only for a bit more flow efficiency, but to allow the use of the oem sensor again....the stock oem sensor provides very good driveability and sensitivity.

Hmmm ...ok, I would have thought it'd cover in the 110 but Justin should know.

...that makes sense to me ...the HPX in the 127 would only use a small portion of the HPX's range so it would not have granualrity as fine as the stock sensor in that tube -- a better solution, imo, if you can get true flow date for that sensor/tube combo.

blackshelby
04-14-2011, 01:07 PM
A 110 with the correct MAF curve with the stock sensor can go to 650rwhp with the HPX it can go well over 1000rwhp

A 127 with the stock sensor should be able to go to around 800-850rwhp (I will know that answer in the next couple days for sure)

KC BadCat
04-14-2011, 03:51 PM
A 110 with the correct MAF curve with the stock sensor can go to 650rwhp with the HPX it can go well over 1000rwhp

A 127 with the stock sensor should be able to go to around 800-850rwhp (I will know that answer in the next couple days for sure)

...that's good info to have......I hate being on the ragged edge of anything, so for now will plan for the 110 with an HPX. A poster on another site said his new 127 allowed the continued use of his frpp strut bar, so that may allow me to go into that direction later......I think using most of the available range of a metering system is best, rather than one that is way overdesigned and under utilized....thanks again.....wish I lived closer to you guys on that side of the country...we just don't have your type of knowledge around here from what I have seen......John

blackshelby
04-14-2011, 08:00 PM
...that's good info to have......I hate being on the ragged edge of anything, so for now will plan for the 110 with an HPX. A poster on another site said his new 127 allowed the continued use of his frpp strut bar, so that may allow me to go into that direction later......I think using most of the available range of a metering system is best, rather than one that is way overdesigned and under utilized....thanks again.....wish I lived closer to you guys on that side of the country...we just don't have your type of knowledge around here from what I have seen......John



No Problem.

I let you know about the 127 since I do have one now, which I will be testing real soon.


Just FYI IMO doesn't really matter where you live


If you are dealing with the correct person, even if 3000 miles away it shouldn't be an issue.


I rather have a tuner that I am confiedent tunes correctly(uses the correct methods )send me a tune, then be in front of a tuner on a dyno which I know doesnt tune correctly.:hide:

KC BadCat
04-15-2011, 02:23 AM
No Problem.

I let you know about the 127 since I do have one now, which I will be testing real soon.


Just FYI IMO doesn't really matter where you live


If you are dealing with the correct person, even if 3000 miles away it shouldn't be an issue.


I rather have a tuner that I am confiedent tunes correctly(uses the correct methods )send me a tune, then be in front of a tuner on a dyno which I know doesnt tune correctly.:hide:

...very true....my concern is that I would have to learn to datalog after the install.....at the end of the day, I still struggle with expanding what I can do with the computer world.....youi would think by now that I would not stress at something like that....:doh2:

..you sound like a good guy...I hope to meet you some day....retirement is two years off, and then I get to do some traveling around......take care...John

Cheftjpeck
04-15-2011, 02:37 AM
Just FYI IMO doesn't really matter where you live
If you are dealing with the correct person, even if 3000 miles away it shouldn't be an issue.
I rather have a tuner that I am confiedent tunes correctly(uses the correct methods )send me a tune, then be in front of a tuner on a dyno which I know doesnt tune correctly.:hide:

I agree 100%
although unfortunately there is not a buyers Guide with 100% accuracy (not opinion) and facts of who exactly does or doesn't tune what is considered as the correct way
They can only rely on personal experience and what others tell them
Would be cool if there was an ubiased guide .. Someone should investigate and publish ... That would be pretty cool info
:grin:

KC BadCat
04-15-2011, 02:41 AM
I agree 100%
although unfortunately there is not a buyers Guide with 100% accuracy (not opinion) and facts of who exactly does or doesn't tune what is considered as the correct way
They can only rely on personal experience and what others tell them
Would be cool if there was an ubiased guide .. Someone should investigate and publish ... That would be pretty cool info
:grin:

..oh man...think of the lawsuits.....l:wow2:

its really hard to cut into the middle of this....that is exactly why I posted like I did.....we really have had the best discussion of this yet from my perspective.

Cheftjpeck
04-15-2011, 02:45 AM
..oh man...think of the lawsuits.....l:wow2:

its really hard to cut into the middle of this....that is exactly why I posted like I did.....we really have had the best discussion of this yet from my perspective.
:rofl3: someone can do like a steve birnbaums guide to Disney but be a guide to effective tuners

This thread is great .. I really keep learning the more I read it!! Thanks all. :tiphat2:

CH53Driver
04-15-2011, 02:46 AM
I agree 100%
although unfortunately there is not a buyers Guide with 100% accuracy (not opinion) and facts of who exactly does or doesn't tune what is considered as the correct way
They can only rely on personal experience and what others tell them
Would be cool if there was an ubiased guide .. Someone should investigate and publish ... That would be pretty cool info
:grin:

Well, it might be considered "biased" but the 2008 FRPP catalog I had went into good detail on this very issue. There was actually a lot of great info about engine tech, how to properly build an engine, tuning, etc in it. I don't know if the current catalog has the same info. I'd have to look for one.

68fastback
04-15-2011, 02:58 AM
...in some regards, the tune is like a set of 'fingerprints' -- or at least a trail of 'bread crumbs' -- that some tuners consistantly leave behind ...sort of an M.O -- deciphered from the scene of the crime -lol :shades:

:sneaking:

CH53Driver
04-15-2011, 03:05 AM
*INFO TAKEN FROM 2008 FRPP CATALOG

DYNAMOMETER TESTING AND FORD RACING CALIBRATIONS
“Why do certain companies claim to make more power with their power upgrade kits than Ford Racing
does with their kits?” To address that question properly, it is necessary to understand some of the
intricacies of chassis dynamometer testing as well as some of the compromises that must be made in
order to simultaneously meet performance, emissions, durability and safety objectives.
Chassis Dynamometer testing
There are two types of chassis dynamometer (dyno) in widespread
use today.
• An inertia dyno uses a large spinning drum that is accelerated by the
drive wheels of the test vehicle. Power is then computed by knowing
the inertia of the drum and how quickly it was accelerated. Torque can
then be calculated by knowing the speed of the drum.
• An eddy-current dyno absorbs and measures power by rotating a
metallic disc through a magnetic field.
Without getting into which dyno is more “correct” under what conditions,
and why, we will simply say that these two types of dyno typically do not
always give the same result even with all else being equal. It is generally not possible to accurately
compare numbers from one type of dyno with those from the other type of dyno. Each type of dyno has
its own advantages and disadvantages, but as long as all the tuning work is done on the same type of
dyno, it doesn’t really matter which one is used.
With any dyno testing there is a need for correction factors that are applied to the raw numbers the dyno
actually measures. These correction factors are an attempt to correct for varying atmospheric conditions
such as humidity, barometric pressure and air temperature. The two most common standards are SAE
J1349 and SAE J607 (sometimes known as “STD” on some dynos). How correction factors are calculated
is given in the “Crate Engine” section of this catalog. For this article, understand that these correction
factors will give results that are different from each other with SAE J1349 typically about 4% lower than
SAE J607. OEMs will almost always quote J1349 corrected numbers when advertising horsepower
and torque.
Whenever comparing dyno results, always be sure that the numbers are corrected to the same standard.
Despite these correction factors, atmospheric conditions can play an additional role in terms of ignition
timing. The correction factors account only for the change in the density of the air due to atmospheric
conditions and cannot account for things like engine borderline spark sensitivity. As inlet air temperature
increases, the PCM will generally retard spark to prevent detonation using the particular octane of fuel for
which it was calibrated. Correction factors cannot account for this because different engine designs can
have different spark sensitivity and different sensitivity of torque relative to ignition timing. Basically this
means that the closer the actual conditions are to the SAE J1349 standard (77 deg F inlet air, 29.31 inHg
barometric pressure) the more comparable the results are to those quoted by the manufacturer.
Most horsepower numbers in the Ford Racing catalog have been determined by using the
SAE J1349 standard.
When testing a particular calibration or performance enhancing part by performing back to back dyno
runs, it is critical to keep test conditions as similar as possible between the runs. This sounds obvious,
but is very commonly overlooked by many aftermarket companies who frequently publish dyno charts
depicting large gains, but fail to give all the necessary data to show the tests were run under similar
conditions. In order to be certain that the test conditions are as similar as possible, the following data is
mandatory and needs to be collected for each run:
• Ambient air temperature
• Barometric pressure
• Inlet air temperature (on a forced induction car, this is usually downstream of the power adder)
• Air/fuel (A/F) ratio (preferably upstream of any catalyst)
Truly meaningful power numbers cannot be collected without this data!

It is also a good idea to make sure the A/F ratio sensor in use on the dyno has not been exposed
to leaded fuel and has not been in service for an excessive period of time (greater than six months,
depending on frequency of use). A/F ratio is the single most important parameter to measure accurately
when doing any sort of dyno tuning, so it is critical the sensor is providing accurate information. When
doing any PCM calibration on a dyno, the resulting calibration will only be as good as the A/F sensor.
These additional inputs should be used for ideal dyno testing and calibration.
• Air/fuel ratio and spark advance commanded by the PCM
• Fuel injector pulsewidth
• Fuel pump duty cycle (in the case of ERFS)
• MAF sensor voltage
• Fuel pressure
• Engine oil temperature
• Differential oil temperature
For Ford Racing calibrations we use all of the data inputs listed both as mandatory and ideal.
How drivetrain affects wheel horsepower:
Most chassis dyno tests are performed using the “roll-on” method, where the vehicle’s drive wheels are
accelerated in a particular gear from a low speed to a high speed (generally to the rev limit of the engine)
in one continuous sweep. Because of this constant acceleration, engine and transmission inertia, drive
wheel inertia, gear ratio, and axle ratio can all affect the final measured horsepower. Generally a heavier
wheel will take more torque to accelerate at the same rate as a lighter wheel, so heavier wheels will tend
to reduce the measured wheel horsepower. Gear ratio comes into play because as the gear ratio strays
from a 1:1, the efficiency drops and therefore the measured horsepower at the wheels also drops. This is
why most dyno runs are run in the 1:1 gear (i.e., 4th gear in a 5 speed overdrive transmission) whenever
possible. The same logic applies to axle ratio as well, which means that changing nothing but axle ratio
can have an effect on measured wheel horsepower. Remember, this does NOT change brake (flywheel)
horsepower, only the delivered wheel horsepower due to the change in drivetrain efficiency.
How calibration can cause misleading dyno results:
Production calibrations have an inferred catalyst temperature protection model which constantly calculates
the temperature in the hottest part of the hottest catalyst. This calculated temperature is based on many
PCM parameters, such as engine speed, load, ingested air mass, time, inlet air temperature, EGR flow rate
and many others.
When the catalyst model calculates that the catalyst temperature is about to exceed a level that is safe for
the catalyst (generally around 1650 deg F), the PCM will richen the A/F mixture as necessary to lower the
exhaust gas temperature and cool the catalyst. This richened A/F ratio will decrease power output, but is
absolutely necessary to keep the catalyst from being permanently damaged. Unless A/F ratio is monitored
during a dyno pull, the dyno operator will have no idea when catalyst temperature protection has been
invoked and can make erroneous conclusions with regard to power output.
As a trivial example of how this can affect dyno testing, consider a supercharged production vehicle with
production calibration performing back to back runs under identical conditions except as noted. The car
is driven to a dyno facility and immediately put on the dyno and a run is performed, yielding a result of
420 hp. In this example, A/F ratio is not monitored. A part is swapped for another “high-performance”
part and another dyno run is performed, resulting in 430 hp. The dyno operator concludes the “high-
performance” part is worth 10 hp. This is not accurate because when the car was first dyno tested,
its catalysts were sufficiently hot that catalyst temperature protection was invoked during the dyno pull
which reduced power output by richening the A/F ratio. While the car was having the parts swapped,
the catalysts cooled down enough that during the next dyno pull catalyst temperature protection was not
invoked. The engine made more power on the second pull because it was running a leaner A/F ratio
closer to optimal and not necessarily because of the “high-performance” part. If the dyno operator was
monitoring A/F ratio, this would have been readily apparent.

If the operator was monitoring the A/F ratio commanded by the PCM, the invocation of catalyst
temperature protection would become self evident. In this example, the erroneous conclusion that was
reached suggested the “high-performance” part was worth 10 hp when it really wasn’t, but the opposite
can also occur quite easily. Without covering every possible scenario, it will suffice to say that dyno
numbers are ONLY meaningful when supporting data such as A/F ratio, inlet air temperature and the
others listed above are also provided.
There is also a model for oxygen sensor protection and exhaust valve protection that when not taken into
account can cause misleading dyno data. In general, exhaust temperatures greater than about 1650
deg F can damage exhaust valves, and extreme care is taken in production calibrations to ensure that
sustained engine operation beyond that temperature does not occur. This is rarely an instantaneous
failure but rather one that over time “tulips” the exhaust valves and ultimately will fail the engine.
Cold-air kits that claim to work without the need of a PCM recalibration are a common source of
misleading dyno power claims. Some of these kits claim enormous power gains using nothing but their kit
and a production calibration. Most of these claims are not supported with A/F, inlet temperature or spark
advance traces during the dyno pulls that are shown in their advertising. In some cases, the apparent
increase in power is due to differing dyno test conditions as mentioned previously, while in other cases
they can be due to the fact that the MAF sensor transfer function in the PCM is left stock. If the cold-air
kit flows more air, and the MAF transfer function in the PCM is stock it will not “know” about the extra air
that’s entering the engine. This will result in the engine running an A/F ratio that is leaner than it should
be for engine durability. While this has the potential to produce more power, it can also be potentially
damaging to catalysts, exhaust valves, piston rings and other engine components. The commanded spark
advance can also be incorrect and result in detonation or pre-ignition with potentially catastrophic results.
Air inlet restrictions generally only become significant at higher airflows, so if a claim is made that a cold-
air kit increases torque at 2000 rpm without the aid of a calibration, you can be sure that varying dyno
test conditions or a significant change in A/F ratio are the cause. Ask for more supporting data!
Similar misleading results can be caused by a failure to keep inlet air temperature constant between runs.
The PCM will retard spark timing to prevent detonation as inlet air temperature increases, lowering power
output. On a forced induction car, the inlet air temperature is generally measured after the power adder
(and after the intercooler, if applicable) and can be MUCH greater than ambient temperature. Careful
monitoring of A/F ratio, and inlet air temperature, are critical to making accurate conclusions regarding
the effectiveness of various high-performance parts.
Secondary factors that also affect measured wheel horsepower are engine oil temperature, differential oil
temperature, humidity, etc. It cannot be overstated that all conditions need to be as similar as possible
between dyno runs in order to have a meaningful scientific conclusion, which requires the supporting data
previously discussed.
Ford Racing Calibrations
The calibrations that Ford Racing provides for our cold-air and supercharger kits are done by Ford
engineers who, in many cases, worked on the actual production vehicles. No one is more familiar with
Ford engines and Ford control systems than Ford engineers. Extreme care is taken to provide as much
power and torque as can be safely delivered, but also to deliver high durability and exceptional drivability.
Most of our kits are also 50-State emissions legal and many are now even offered with a Ford Racing
limited warranty.

Here are a couple of aftermarket tuners practices that we do NOT recommend:
• Turning off the inferred catalyst, oxygen sensor and exhaust valve temperature protection logic
discussed in the previous section. This prevents the PCM from richening the A/F ratio to protect
these components which can result in more power under certain conditions. The downside is
drastically decreased durability of these expensive components. Ford Racing does not compromise
durability by turning off this calibration logic.

• They often advance spark timing to potentially unsafe levels. We test our calibrations in a wind tunnel
and in hot dry weather to verify that potentially damaging spark knock or catastrophic pre-ignition does
not occur. We also do cold weather and altitude testing as well as extensive emissions and durability
testing on several vehicles before we release a calibration to the customer. Some companies do not
realize that they need to perform this type of testing in the first place!
Automatic transmission calibration is an area that Ford Racing sets itself apart from other “tuners”. We
generally make extensive calibration changes to not only improve shift quality and give the transmission a
more performance oriented feel, but take great care to ensure that durability is not compromised to levels
we feel would be unacceptable to a customer. In development we monitor things like clutch slip times,
slip energies, band temperatures and other variables to make calibration changes as appropriate so that
the customer can be sure of a quality product that will continue to deliver improved performance in the
long term. As mentioned before, these changes are performed by the same engineers who designed and
developed the vehicles in the first place, and who are more familiar than anyone with their performance
and durability envelopes.
Some aftermarket tuners develop their calibrations exclusively on a chassis dyno and go straight to
the end customer. While dyno work is a critical part of the development process, it is only one piece
of a complex puzzle. Calibrating for wide open throttle (WOT) is generally simple, but the bulk of the
calibration effort is getting the part (and closed) throttle drivability correct. Our calibrations are developed
not only on the dyno, but also on the street for production (or better) quality drivability, and across many
vehicles to allow for manufacturing tolerances. Varied driving conditions, constant data monitoring, and
long-term testing ensure consistent drivability.
In recent years, cars and trucks have shifted toward electronic throttle control (ETC) or “drive-by-wire”
systems for packaging, cost and enhanced calibration functions. Ford Racing calibrations for ETC
vehicles take advantage of some of the increased functionality offered by these systems by changing the
relationship between the pedal and the throttle for improved “performance feel”. This allows us to provide
substantial improvements in “performance feel” even on the kits where the peak horsepower increase
might be considered modest by some. The peak power numbers do not always tell the whole story.
Why some companies claim to make more power:
Some claims are due to poor and misleading dynamometer test practices. Others are genuine but at the
expense of engine, catalyst or drivetrain durability.
Hopefully this article gives you the tools necessary to determine what is real dyno horsepower,
manipulated false horsepower and temporary horsepower waiting to cause a failure. We are confident
that as a potential customer you will agree that no one knows your car or truck better than the Ford
engineers who designed it in the first place. Our kits offer the best blend of performance, durability and
drivability that exists on the market today.

68fastback
04-15-2011, 03:24 AM
Well, it might be considered "biased" but the 2008 FRPP catalog I had went into good detail on this very issue. There was actually a lot of great info about engine tech, how to properly build an engine, tuning, etc in it. I don't know if the current catalog has the same info. I'd have to look for one.

Matt, were you referring to one of these? (two variation on the same theme)
5477
5476

CH53Driver
04-15-2011, 03:31 AM
Matt, were you referring to one of these? (two variation on the same theme)
5477
5476

Dan,

I cut and pasted what I was referring to in post #37. I took it straight from the 2008 FRPP catalog. They have a ton more information on top of what I already posted on such things as electronic fuel injection, camshafts, crate engines, etc. Basically as you go through the catalog there's a bunch of articles on the subject at hand.

68fastback
04-15-2011, 03:39 AM
...cool ....I mised that, Matt ...I was was probably searching while you posted that ...it's the same core content -- they just refresh the format a bit for each issue of the catalog, it seems.

Cheftjpeck
04-15-2011, 03:44 AM
More awesome info!!! Thanks
But my guidebook i was referring to was one that would clearly advise who of the tuners out there follow those guidelines.. Names them by name :grin:

Birdman
04-15-2011, 10:52 AM
More awesome info!!! Thanks
But my guidebook i was referring to was one that would clearly advise who of the tuners out there follow those guidelines.. Names them by name :grin:

I could do that based on certain tunes I have disected by certain well known tuners but instead of taking that information which is stating the simple facts, those who happen to like those tuners would consider it bashing. There are people who no matter what you tell them or show them refuse to believe the facts when presented, and most don't understand what the tuning differences actually mean anyway so they may also take it as bashing too.

Instead this article was written to inform the community in a simple easy to understand instructive manner about the most important part, the heart of the tune, the foundation of all computations being made in mass air engine management, the MAF and why it's accuracy is so critical to a proper running engine. All other changes in the tune rely on the MAF meter curve being 100% accurate as they constantly refer back to the information supplied by the MAF to know when and by how much to implement crucial changes to things like timing and fuel etc.

The biggest problem the community faces is these tuners who are changing the MAF curve to adjust target A/F genuinely believe it's the right way to tune based on how they were taught and will defend their actions no matter what. They never blame the problems being encountered on their tuning, it's usually either some "faulty part" on the engine or simply "bad gas"....never their tune because they see absolutely nothing wrong with their tune. Often times these same tuners will turn off important "Mil code checks" in the tune to prevent check engine lights from coming on because of the changes they have made in their tune. The problem with this practice is it often hides real problems. I've seen as many as 215 mil codes out of 234 turned off by a certain well known tuner.....:doh2:

The reason this article was written and published on this forum is because we felt it's time to a least try to help the community to understand what's going on out there and give some insight as to why there are so many drivability problems and in some cases blown engines.:shades: What people do with this information is up to them but at least we can say we tried to help.

My suggestion is to ask your tuner if they change the meter curve to adjust for target A/F or any other reason for that matter, I'm sure they will tell you if they do because the ones who do believe it is the correct way to tune, after all "they've been doing hundreds of tunes that way". :doh2:

papashelby
04-16-2011, 08:50 PM
Birdman and everyone else, thanks for all the great info. Too bad it's all over my head. I was looking at a pulley change and tune, but now I'm not sure what to do. I thought the hp/$$, this would be the way to go. Since you've seen a lot of bad tunes (talking to Birdman), and don't want to "bash", have you seen good ones that you would recommend? I like Cheftjpeck's idea. It would make things a lot more simple, for simple minds like mine.

Thanks,
papashelby

Joe G
04-16-2011, 09:05 PM
Birdman and everyone else, thanks for all the great info. Too bad it's all over my head. I was looking at a pulley change and tune, but now I'm not sure what to do. I thought the hp/$$, this would be the way to go. Since you've seen a lot of bad tunes (talking to Birdman), and don't want to "bash", have you seen good ones that you would recommend? I like Cheftjpeck's idea. It would make things a lot more simple, for simple minds like mine.

Thanks,
papashelby

Let me email you some of my ideas.

CH53Driver
04-16-2011, 09:46 PM
Birdman and everyone else, thanks for all the great info. Too bad it's all over my head. I was looking at a pulley change and tune, but now I'm not sure what to do. I thought the hp/$$, this would be the way to go. Since you've seen a lot of bad tunes (talking to Birdman), and don't want to "bash", have you seen good ones that you would recommend? I like Cheftjpeck's idea. It would make things a lot more simple, for simple minds like mine.

Thanks,
papashelby

Tasca works directly with Ford so I would trust them 100%. :grin:

JTB
04-16-2011, 11:53 PM
Tasca works directly with Ford so I would trust them 100%. :grin:

Nothing wrong with all the tunes from FORD RACING either...

CH53Driver
04-17-2011, 12:13 AM
Nothing wrong with all the tunes from FORD RACING either...

Nope, not at all. But papashelby mentioned a pulley and Ford don't offer a tune for a different size pulley. Tasca probably does? At least they could give some sage advice on what power level he's looking for.

Cheftjpeck
04-17-2011, 01:26 AM
The book idea (naming names) was a little tongue in cheek humor per say.. I wouldn't expect or encourage someone to actually do this as it would come across as bashing as informative as it may be... I do know there is enough out there on tuners and what they do on the web including negative feedback etc to help allot make a pretty good decision .. In the same sense I am sure if you want to find out info on someones rep I would ask ones that know in a less public fashion to prevent any assumptions of intent etc... I love the info that is posted here if nothing else it gives me a HUGE reference point log to go to my tuner with and inquire..
Thx again all!!!

Cheftjpeck
04-17-2011, 01:29 AM
Nope, not at all. But papashelby mentioned a pulley and Ford don't offer a tune for a different size pulley. Tasca probably does? At least they could give some sage advice on what power level he's looking for.

However as I checked and found out though there is enough wiggle room and protection in the ford tune for the cai to work with a smaller pulley

Boston Mike
04-17-2011, 01:30 AM
Tasca works directly with Ford so I would trust them 100%. :grin:

I have a new tasca tune coming in the near future.......:grin:

CH53Driver
04-17-2011, 01:50 AM
However as I checked and found out though there is enough wiggle room and protection in the ford tune for the cai to work with a smaller pulley

Good info! I posted my opinion on papashelby's welcome thread after this came up.


I have a new tasca tune coming in the near future.......:grin:

Sweet. :grin:

mustang loco
04-17-2011, 02:30 AM
I have a new tasca tune coming in the near future.......:grin:

nice,what did you change Mike??

Boston Mike
04-17-2011, 03:14 AM
nice,what did you change Mike??

Just setting up for future changes.

mustang loco
04-17-2011, 03:16 AM
Just setting up for future changes.

cool,:popcorn:guess we'll have to "wait for it"

Boston Mike
04-17-2011, 04:19 AM
cool,:popcorn:guess we'll have to "wait for it"

On the list is to switch out to the cj123 cai/mass air meter. Then it will be long tubes and TVS.

mustang loco
04-17-2011, 11:39 AM
On the list is to switch out to the cj123 cai/mass air meter. Then it will be long tubes and TVS.

Nice mods Mike,different beast coming your way bud'.

JTB
04-17-2011, 10:12 PM
So who's tune is in the new 800hp Super Snake? :popcorn:

I think FR's max tune is 750hp, right?



http://dubdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/shelby-super-snake.jpg
The 2012 Shelby GT500 Super Snake, an 800-horsepower version of the Ford Mustang, will debut at the New York Auto Show later this month. The base Super Snake pushes out only 750 horsepower, but those who want the big 800 ca opt for an optional upgrade package that will provide 50 more. The 2012 Super Snake will be legal to drive on public roads on all 50 states, the carmaker promised, and it will cost less than $100,000.

Birdman
04-17-2011, 10:43 PM
I believe SAI has a local tuner now ...I have not had the opportunity to download one of his tunes yet to know what it looks like. I highly doubt Ford has anything to do with it.
They may be using the Ford tune in the new GT350 though.

68fastback
04-18-2011, 06:29 AM
...anyone know what SC the 800HP SS uses? Is it the Whipple 3.4? Have they backed away from KB yet?

Joe G
04-18-2011, 07:00 AM
...anyone know what SC the 800HP SS uses? Is it the Whipple 3.4? Have they backed away from KB yet?

Nope. Still drinking the KB kool aid.


http://www.leftlanenews.com/shelbys-800-horsepower-2012-gt500-super-snake-coming-to-ny-auto-show.html

68fastback
04-18-2011, 06:08 PM
Nope. Still drinking the KB kool aid.


http://www.leftlanenews.com/shelbys-800-horsepower-2012-gt500-super-snake-coming-to-ny-auto-show.html

Thanks, Joe ...just found that info this morning on TS too. Seems very inspecific ...no info on whether 2.8/3.6LC ...who would pay for a $50K inspecific mod to their Shelby? :doh2:

Maybe they'll tell you after you pay :haha:

JTB
04-18-2011, 08:48 PM
Nope. Still drinking the KB kool aid.


http://www.leftlanenews.com/shelbys-800-horsepower-2012-gt500-super-snake-coming-to-ny-auto-show.html


- Here's where the extra 50HP is coming from (according to the press release).

"with a Kenne Bell supercharger tune upgrade."

Birdman
04-18-2011, 09:06 PM
Sorry but I wouldn't trust any KB tune from either KB or SAI especially from what I know about KB....I'll just leave it at that. :shades:

68fastback
04-19-2011, 12:28 AM
- Here's where the extra 50HP is coming from (according to the press release).

"with a Kenne Bell supercharger tune upgrade."

...yeah, saw that ...but I dismissed it as ad rhetoric since a tune alone can only add HP with timing and leaner A/Fs *unless* their "on pump gas" words are secret SA code for "this tune requires 93 and the 750crank is 91" ...which may well be all of whazzup. If so, for a $50K upfit, you'd think they'd just say that :doh2:

Birdy's got the real problem nailed, tho ...either tune is ...well ...what it is :shades: ...nuff said.

bigb427
08-09-2011, 08:55 PM
Some info that all of you might want to know. There is a new TSB from Ford that anyone thinking of modifying their 5.0 coyote should read. Basically these engines completely stock are running a lot closer to the ragged edge than any Ford motor in the past has. Because of this Ford is cracking down on engine failures where there is evidence of aftermarket mods having been done to the vehicle.
Must read for 5.0 Coyote engine owners: http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/6/474864/tsb11-07-07.pdf

I just realized I posted this in the GT500 section - sorry. The post is still relevant to other motors also, not just the new 5.0.
Ford's stance on mods on all vehicles is tightening up, so it still pertains. Be careful before making mods!

68fastback
08-10-2011, 05:18 AM
I've seen that ...thanks for posting the link!

I've heard that the Coyote and F150 (possibly more) can be 'deep' scanned and tell if there has ever been an aftermarket tune installed, even if back-out and KAM reset, etc. I sure can't blame Ford for getting defensive when there are so many tuners out there who really don't understand why the MAF curve is *not* appropriate fodder for tuning -lol.

---

Btw, our kids used to live in Vegas (they're now in NJ) and still own a nice place in a gated community in Henderson ...that's lost 35-40+ of it's value -doh!- and would be underwater if they handn't put 1/3 down (which I warned them against) when they bought there almost 7 years ago. Our son-in-law is a chef and Las Vegas was booming at the time, so it made sense ...they moved back east when their daughter got to school age. I hope you haven't been bitten by the housing craziness out there this too.

Carnut
08-10-2011, 02:13 PM
Thanks, Joe ...just found that info this morning on TS too. Seems very inspecific ...no info on whether 2.8/3.6LC ...who would pay for a $50K inspecific mod to their Shelby? :doh2:

Maybe they'll tell you after you pay :haha:

So would that make it a liberal tune?

bigb427
08-10-2011, 04:21 PM
I've seen that ...thanks for posting the link!

I've heard that the Coyote and F150 (possibly more) can be 'deep' scanned and tell if there has ever been an aftermarket tune installed, even if back-out and KAM reset, etc. I sure can't blame Ford for getting defensive when there are so many tuners out there who really don't understand why the MAF curve is *not* appropriate fodder for tuning -lol.

---

Btw, our kids used to live in Vegas (they're now in NJ) and still own a nice place in a gated community in Henderson ...that's lost 35-40+ of it's value -doh!- and would be underwater if they handn't put 1/3 down (which I warned them against) when they bought there almost 7 years ago. Our son-in-law is a chef and Las Vegas was booming at the time, so it made sense ...they moved back east when their daughter got to school age. I hope you haven't been bitten by the housing craziness out there this too.


I am not aware of a "deep scanning" as you refer to. I do know that Ford engineers can access some data from the PCM that us technicians can't, so I guess it could be possible.

My house is now worth about 50% of what it was a few years ago. Because of this and the terrible local economy, I am currently Mustangless. Unfortunately I have been affected as a lot of people have.

68fastback
08-10-2011, 06:37 PM
I am not aware of a "deep scanning" as you refer to. I do know that Ford engineers can access some data from the PCM that us technicians can't, so I guess it could be possible.

My house is now worth about 50% of what it was a few years ago. Because of this and the terrible local economy, I am currently Mustangless. Unfortunately I have been affected as a lot of people have.

That may be it. I heard that some black-box data can only be accessed by Ford rep, but dunno any details.

Sorry to hear you were bitten by the Vegas market too ...hope it starts turning around soon ...it has to eventually but there's still quite a default inventory the market needs to reabsorb first, I think.

CH53Driver
08-10-2011, 07:37 PM
That may be it. I heard that some black-box data can only be accessed by Ford rep, but dunno any details.

Sorry to hear you were bitten by the Vegas market too ...hope it starts turning around soon ...it has to eventually but there's still quite a default inventory the market needs to reabsorb first, I think.

I was told this over a year ago by the Ford Tech I trusted in NC before I moved. He told me that any SVT vehicle that had engine issues were "investigated" by a SVT engineer and that they had the ability to see how many times the computer had been "flashed" and "reset". That's why I was worried when JT had his engine issues. I know his got resolved and maybe they do it a little differently in Canada in regards to SVT vehicles. Personally, if I ever own a "new" Ford performance vehicle, I will only upgrade with Ford approved (FRPP) products and tunes. Only once the vehicle was out of warranty and/or paid off would I consider doing anything else.

blackshelby
03-11-2012, 02:15 PM
Another way to explain it.

The main purpose and only purpose of a mass air meter is to measure air. (Real air flow measurement, not close air flow or a made up values) Lots of real good info out there regarding this from GM, Ford, etc
It so critical that this measurement is real and accurate, every calculation depends on it.

Here are just a couple parameters that are calculated from the flow the MAF meter measures.
Load (which is super critical for timing)
Torque calculation. (Real important with DRW systems).
And so on, the list is almost endless but I can assure you that every calculation depends on that air flow measurement being real/accurate.

I will direct you to the Ford Racing Catalog pay close attention to page 206 in the 2012 catalog http://editiondigital.net/publication/?i=88199 QUOTE: “When using this method, the actual flow data for the injector (available on our website for all FRPP injectors), as well as the “transfer function” for the MAF are entered into the calibration in the PCM.
Understand the correct way of calibrating a mass air meter (sensor in a specific housing) with a correct mass air transfer function.


The OEM approach to and the correct way for MAF tuning is to place the MAF assembly and sensor on a precisely calibrated flow bench and measure air flow which will yield an exact transfer function. (This will tell you exactly how much air is measured to a corresponding voltage)
Understanding the correct way to achieve a real calibration for a mass air meter and achieving it, such as on a professional flow bench, is a critically important step before taking that transfer function and entering it in the tune. Once that has been done then the rest of the parameters wanted/needed to change in the tune can be safely recalibrated (at this point refer to what is pointed to in the aforementioned Ford racing catalog pages)
Checking MAF voltage is important for a few reasons. One so you know that you did not exceed the range of the sensor. It is also used in checking the amount of airflow the motor is moving at a certain RPM. Airflow is a needed known parameter to understand fuel requirements. (Also Great info when a blower, cams or anything that can improve airflow is changed) Airflow is power, great data to record.

It’s so important understanding the need for a correct mass air calibration transfer curve to be entered into a tune instead of trying to calibrate/create the mass air sensor transfer function on/in the car. (Adjusting it without realizing all the other factors)

Calibrating a mass air meter and calibrating a complete tune are two different things but one should be starting off with the correct calibrate transfer function first.

Now if someone had real sophisticated equipment, one could measure fuel consumption, fuel flow rate, engine efficiency, injector flow, air temps, ect along with an air fuel sensor. One could get close to figuring out /back tracking air flow needed in relations with the data obtain and create a transfer function. (But this method would not happen very easily in a car) It would take many hours if not days in a controlled environment with a good amount of equipment.) You would need to know all the fuel rates of the complete fuel system being used (injectors, injector’s slopes, fuel pumps, lines etc)

The method used by those tuners who tune by altering a transfer curve to obtain a certain air fuel ratio takes nothing else in account like fuel pumps, injectors or any other change.

Example so we added a boost a pump instead of correcting or knowing the real fuel flow increase, one lowers the mass air transfer function to make the motor believe it’s moving less air (so it will deliver less fuel.) Maybe they do touch the fuel settings some along with the maf transfer function. Why would the mass air meter transfer function be changed if airflow hasn’t changed?( not realizing what it does to everything else.) Compensating or tricking air flow instead of addressing the real change and only change…….. Fuel

When one tries to create a mass air transfer function in a tune were the CAI, pumps injectors etc were all changed at the same time they have no real flow data on the fuel system or the mass air meter. When they do most of the calibrating in the tune by changing the meter transfer curve to obtain the air fuel ratio they want they have no clue what that meter is telling the computer airflow wise, all they care about and looking at is one thing (air fuel ratio coming out the tail pipe)
Maybe they are close, maybe not; don’t know it’s all a guess.
I also believe this is why when a tuner does move a transfer curve around in a tune without knowing its true flow, they get some cars to run good (no problems) and others with all kinds of little drivability issues . Further, those drivability issues are often blamed on some part the guy changed in the car but rarely the tune itself.

It all goes back to understanding all from the ground up, not starting on the top floor and trying to work down.

One could believe what they want but moving a transfer curve around (instead of using real flow data) is like calibrating a torque wrench by feel. (How accurate is that?)

Believe this write up or not it is your call and your engine that could be at risk. Many have already found out too late and some still are blaming it on bad gas.

Joe G
03-11-2012, 04:36 PM
More great info, Blackshelby! Do it right, or don't do it at all. :ford:




BTW... BVM's own tunes are done by one of the best tuners in the industry, and he ONLY tunes this (correct) way. :wtg:


BVM Performance custom tunes (http://store.bvmperformance.com/VMP_CUSTOM_TUNES_FOR_2007_2009_GT500_p/bvmp%20gt500tune.htm)

68fastback
03-11-2012, 05:33 PM
Nice write-up, Jim!

For handy reference, here's page 206 (captioned from FRPP 2012 catalog) mentioned in post #71. If having difficulty reading it, repeatedly click up the thumpnail at the bottom to max resolution:

http://stangsunited.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8827&d=1331487091