2012 Boss Tranny TSB 11-03-18

[Grabber]

:yikes:

[JTB]

What a joke! This is getting old, real old!

http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/auto-fail-20081203-122424.jpg

[CH53Driver]

Bollocks!:judge:

[JTB]

Bollocks!:judge:



A post of notable quality. :wtg:

[CH53Driver]

A post of notable quality. :wtg:

:tiphat:

[Carnut]

:tiphat:

Almost every manual transmission I have owned, and its been quite a few, have exhibited this tendency. Once the tranny warms up, its fine. My 2008 GT 500 is this way, but more noticeable with the short throw shifter I installed.

[Dad's72Mach]

Almost every manual transmission I have owned, and its been quite a few, have exhibited this tendency. Once the tranny warms up, its fine. My 2008 GT 500 is this way, but more noticeable with the short throw shifter I installed.


same here. I always assumed it was a normal condition.


:pimp:

[hellfyr]

So.... dump the race fluid for some sub-par fluid for a condition that only takes place in non-race conditions. Hmm... something wrong with that.

[68fastback]

Almost every manual transmission I have owned, and its been quite a few, have exhibited this tendency. Once the tranny warms up, its fine. My 2008 GT 500 is this way, but more noticeable with the short throw shifter I installed.


same here. I always assumed it was a normal condition.


:pimp:


+3 ...though I'd tend to leave the heavier fluid in if it works fine one warmed up. My German Capri 4-spd used 85W gear lube which was a bear at -20F :yikes: ...but just fine after 10 minutes of driving and never missed shifts ...once warmed up ...though I was tempted to thin it with 10% auto trans fluid, I never did.


These are the two fluids referred to in the TSB:

Full Synth Manual Trans Fluid (http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/Main/product.asp?product=Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid&category=Transmission Fluid) spec: WSD-M2C200-C
Dual Clutch Trans Fluid (http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/Main/product.asp?product=Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid&category=Transmission Fluid) spec: WSS-M2C200-D2

Both are made from "synthetic base oils and performance additives" ...no weight spec on the DCT fluid ...dunno but *if* this is the same spec fluid used on other DCTs run in exoticars it might be a great alternative.

[Gr8snkbite]

thanks Rob...

[CH53Driver]

I think some people just need to stop being *ussies and start working out a little more often if it's "that hard to shift when it's cold out".

[68fastback]

...true, Matt ...and shouldn't be standing on it when it's cold out anyway ...until things come to temp.

[Birdman]

I think some people just need to stop being *ussies and start working out a little more often if it's "that hard to shift when it's cold out".


...true, Matt ...and shouldn't be standing on it when it's cold out anyway ...until things come to temp.

:goodpost: Much ado about nothing IMO...

[68fastback]

...true ...and it's nice that there's at least a high-quality alternative for those that it might annoy ...or those who live in the Canadian wilderness and have to dodge moose right away in the morning, or are auditioning for Ice Road Truckers BOSS 302 Edition, or are just residents of MN ;-) ...might pick up a fraction of a rwhp too! :rolleyes: :biggrin:

[JTB]

Let's just hope that for the owners of the new Boss 302, this issue doesn't blossom into a full scale TRANNY Fiasco like the GT500 program.

A book-bound summary of Ford's TSBs for the S197 Mustangs would look like the GRAPES of WRATH.

http://www.outofur.com/upload/2010/06/rome_thumbs_down.jpg

[Carnut]

I haven't done the research, BUT, I suspect that you find the same even more true with other automotive manufacturers. I haven't heard of any Ford with stuck throttles.

Regarding the "GT 500 tranny fiasco", Ford has developed higher horsepower products that the industry has never seen before. They develop new products to handle the power these cars put out and are going to have some issues, it is just reality. I had a couple of late model Corvettes, one of which was the ZO6, and I got and endless stream of recall notices from defective roof panels to clutch issues etc. With the number of new products that come out every year, its really a wonder there are not more TSB's and recalls.

Am I defending Ford? Heck yes and this is based on having had over 35 new Ford products over the years, many of them being the high performance versions.

[JTB]

I haven't done the research, BUT, I suspect that you find the same even more true with other automotive manufacturers. I haven't heard of any Ford with stuck throttles.

Regarding the "GT 500 tranny fiasco", Ford has developed higher horsepower products that the industry has never seen before. They develop new products to handle the power these cars put out and are going to have some issues, it is just reality. I had a couple of late model Corvettes, one of which was the ZO6, and I got and endless stream of recall notices from defective roof panels to clutch issues etc. With the number of new products that come out every year, its really a wonder there are not more TSB's and recalls.

Am I defending Ford? Heck yes and this is based on having had over 35 new Ford products over the years, many of them being the high performance versions.

That a lot of fookin' FORDs. :surprised:

I own two FORD Products, one has has an overwhelming number of issues (some major), one has not. I think it's clear that the early GT500s (07-09) had a myriad of issues as a result of lack of engineering, R&D and inferior component sourcing. JMO

[Carnut]

That a lot of fookin' FORDs. :surprised:

I own two FORD Products, one has has an overwhelming number of issues (some major), one has not. I think it's clear that the early GT500s (07-09) had a myriad of issues as a result of lack of engineering, R&D and inferior component sourcing. JMO

Perhaps, my point is I don't think this is a unique problem to Ford hence my personal experience with the Corvettes. I think Ford does a good job given the real world realities of manufacturing.

Ford has the highest ratings for a manufacturer according JD Power and a number of other sources. The cost to bring a specialty product to market is high and must be spread out over the number of models sold. In the case of the early GT 500's, one of the goals was to provide a performance car value for the customer which Ford did quite well. Engineering had to based upon the use of "off the shelf" products (which has been the SVT credo) and out sourced products where necessary (such as the Eaton superchargers). To take and do the R&D standard that they use on a car that sell 500,000 units to a car that is 10,000 units would make the car so excessively expensive, most customers would not pay the money.

Take the transmission for instance, it comes from the same source that Chevrolet and Chrylser use because that is the only manufacturer that can meet the high horsepower needs of the car at a price that fits the budget constraints of the car. They outsourced a dual disc racing clutch that is capable of the car. Multiply that by a number of parts needed to build the car. Put all of these parts together and test them in budget and they all seem to work. Remember, they have budgets because they have to make a profit. Afterall, Ford or any other manufacturer, isn't going to build you a car at loss.

Finally, the customer gets this brand new hot rod he is willing to pay the price for and puts it under driving conditions not encountered in stop and go traffic and in most cases beat on the car because it's fun. I beat on mine occasionally, heck that's why I bought the thing. Then you get customers who modify that same product with more power, sh8t happens, and they blame the car. Sometimes the blame is justified, sometimes it is not.

Then you have the Friday factor that all manufacturers seem to have. Through the luck of the draw, one particular vehicle seems to get that mathematically impossible number of defective parts. (Those parts where one in 10,000 is defective).

Clearly, I don't thnk I am going to changing your mind. I too am expressing my humble opinion.

[JTB]

Perhaps, my point is I don't think this is a unique problem to Ford hence my personal experience with the Corvettes. I think Ford does a good job given the real world realities of manufacturing.

Ford has the highest ratings for a manufacturer according JD Power and a number of other sources. The cost to bring a specialty product to market is high and must be spread out over the number of models sold. In the case of the early GT 500's, one of the goals was to provide a performance car value for the customer which Ford did quite well. Engineering had to based upon the use of "off the shelf" products (which has been the SVT credo) and out sourced products where necessary (such as the Eaton superchargers). To take and do the R&D standard that they use on a car that sell 500,000 units to a car that is 10,000 units would make the car so excessively expensive, most customers would not pay the money.

Take the transmission for instance, it comes from the same source that Chevrolet and Chrylser use because that is the only manufacturer that can meet the high horsepower needs of the car at a price that fits the budget constraints of the car. They outsourced a dual disc racing clutch that is capable of the car. Multiply that by a number of parts needed to build the car. Put all of these parts together and test them in budget and they all seem to work. Remember, they have budgets because they have to make a profit. Afterall, Ford or any other manufacturer, isn't going to build you a car at loss.

Finally, the customer gets this brand new hot rod he is willing to pay the price for and puts it under driving conditions not encountered in stop and go traffic and in most cases beat on the car because it's fun. I beat on mine occasionally, heck that's why I bought the thing. Then you get customers who modify that same product with more power, sh8t happens, and they blame the car. Sometimes the blame is justified, sometimes it is not.

Then you have the Friday factor that all manufacturers seem to have. Through the luck of the draw, one particular vehicle seems to get that mathematically impossible number of defective parts. (Those parts where one in 10,000 is defective).

Clearly, I don't thnk I am going to changing your mind. I too am expressing my humble opinion.

I agree with you that these issues are not unique to Ford, it's is just disappointing that so many things have gone astray with their flagship Mustang. The other issue is it is often a third party supplier that has caused the issue, but it's Ford that suffer the damage to their brand. This must really piss them off and make for some interesting conversations during contract renewal with these parts suppliers.

Do you think that road testing the cars for longer periods of time BEFORE they are released for purchase would help to discover more defects?

I was also thinking the other day that parts on cars now are so light as manufactures look for more fuel economy, are parts and components just not as durable and robust as they used to be?

[Carnut]

I agree with you that these issues are not unique to Ford, it's is just disappointing that so many things have gone astray with their flagship Mustang. The other issue is it often a third party supplier that has caused the issue, but it's Ford that suffer the damage to their brand. This must really piss them off and make for some interesting conversations during contract renewal with these parts suppliers.

Do you think that road testing the cars for longer periods of time BEFORE they are released for purchase would help to discover more defects?

I was also thinking the other day that parts on cars now are so light as manufactures look for more fuel economy, are parts and components just not as durable and robust as they used to be?

I go back quite aways, so I guess I have to say, for the most part the durabilty in general has increase dramatically. I was forever fixing stuff on a regular basis that don't seem to be a problem now a days. Plugs and points every other weekend, clutches every 5,000 miles, broken axles, broken transmissions, bad rocker arms and so forth. All cars seemed to be crap in the mid seventies until the early 80's with the introduction of the new 5.0 Mustangs. Quality and durablitly seemed to improve expotentially after this point, to what I think is a level we have never seen before.

I think today, with younger buyers, the expectation is much higher than it used to be. The old hi po cars just broke if you leaned on them hard, and the manufacturers just laughed at you if wanted a warranty repair because you played to hard. Changing to a high flow air cleaner would void your waranty, really.

Its hard to gage whether or not more driving would identify defects more, a parts supplier will go to extra efforts to give someone like Ford a product for testing that will be perfect. Then when large orders are filled, the extra effort goes away. Again, they all set budgets for testing that must figure into the bottom line, more testing will equate to a higher price. Figuring the right amount is guesswork. With limited production specialty vehicles, you can't spread your costs around as well.

I don't think out in the real world of buyers who don't discuss their cars on forums such as this one, that there is that much damage to the GT 500 reputation. I hear nothing but good things from the local owners that I meet at cruise ins and car shows. They, in general, are extremely pleased.

The bigger damage comes from supplier issues similar to the one Ford faced with the previous generation of diesel truck engines. 2008-2010 (approximately). Ford finally designed and built their new diesel for 2011 that seems to be quite durable. But they have large number of trucks to spread their costs over.

[68fastback]

I haven't done the research, BUT, I suspect that you find the same even more true with other automotive manufacturers. I haven't heard of any Ford with stuck throttles.

Regarding the "GT 500 tranny fiasco", Ford has developed higher horsepower products that the industry has never seen before. They develop new products to handle the power these cars put out and are going to have some issues, it is just reality. I had a couple of late model Corvettes, one of which was the ZO6, and I got and endless stream of recall notices from defective roof panels to clutch issues etc. With the number of new products that come out every year, its really a wonder there are not more TSB's and recalls.

Am I defending Ford? Heck yes and this is based on having had over 35 new Ford products over the years, many of them being the high performance versions.

I think you're right-on Carnut ...look at all the outright failures DCX had for the first several years with the T56 in the Vipers ...snapping tranny input shafts and eventually Tremec having to create a Viper-spec T56 ...at least Ford worked with them in advance and got an initial exclusive on the TR6060 version of the T56 with lots of improvements including billet primary, wider gears, etc). The ZR1 then picked up the TR6060 and the Eaton TVS rotor set (which FRPP/Roush also had an exclusive on for a while). My point is that, as you said, when you push the envelope things go wrong -- that's unfortunate but it's good to see Ford pushing the envelope first lately rather than playing catch-up.

Still Ford did screw up the GT500 clutch stuff to some extent ...a problematic design teamed up with a cera-metalic clutch that many were unfamiliar with and add in some transport jockeys that were smoking them in 3rd for a pre-warped break-in -doh! ...and getting to the bottom of it seemed semi-inscrutable ...at least for a while. In spite of all that, Mustang is still has a remarkable overall reliability rating.

[Carnut]

I think you're right-on Carnut ...look at all the outright failures DCX had for the first several years with the T56 in the Vipers ...snapping tranny input shafts and eventually Tremec having to create a Viper-spec T56 ...at least Ford worked with them in advance and got an initial exclusive on the TR6060 version of the T56 with lots of improvements including billet primary, wider gears, etc). The ZR1 then picked up the TR6060 and the Eaton TVS rotor set (which FRPP/Roush also had an exclusive on for a while). My point is that, as you said, when you push the envelope things go wrong -- that's unfortunate but it's good to see Ford pushing the envelope first lately rather than playing catch-up.

Still Ford did screw up the GT500 clutch stuff to some extent ...a problematic design teamed up with a cera-metalic clutch that many were unfamiliar with and add in some transport jockeys that were smoking them in 3rd for a pre-warped break-in -doh! ...and getting to the bottom of it seemed semi-inscrutable ...at least for a while. In spite of all that, Mustang is still has a remarkable overall reliability rating.

I am still uncertain as to real cause of the clutch issues, especially since mine is just fine, plenty of free travel and smooth shifting transmission. It is a 2008 model so it did have some improvements such as a different spline from the 2007 which I also had. I didn't have any clutch issues with it either. Maybe I am one of the lucky ones whose cars did not come pre-warped but I have had it in parades that can be real clutch frying events if you aren't paying attention (riding the clutch) and heavy traffic. Both cars have done lots of burnouts. So the jury is still out for me on the clutch whether its technique, pre-warping, or something else. I just don't know.

[rickf73]

My clutch was perfect and figured it was safe. Then at just over 19K it started slipping when I put the power on above 2K rpm. So far so good at 32K, although it doesn't seem to shift as easy as before.

[JTB]

My clutch was perfect and figured it was safe. Then at just over 19K it started slipping when I put the power on above 2K rpm. So far so good at 32K, although it doesn't seem to shift as easy as before.

Did you have the TSB done @ 19K?

[rickf73]

Did you have the TSB done @ 19K?

Yes, the dealer did the work, although it took about 3 weeks to complete due to parts being on back order.

[68fastback]

I am still uncertain as to real cause of the clutch issues, especially since mine is just fine, plenty of free travel and smooth shifting transmission. It is a 2008 model so it did have some improvements such as a different spline from the 2007 which I also had. I didn't have any clutch issues with it either. Maybe I am one of the lucky ones whose cars did not come pre-warped but I have had it in parades that can be real clutch frying events if you aren't paying attention (riding the clutch) and heavy traffic. Both cars have done lots of burnouts. So the jury is still out for me on the clutch whether its technique, pre-warping, or something else. I just don't know.

yea, first that special PTFE lube was missing, then they discovered the input shaft splines were cut with inadequate clearance, but there were also cases of pressure-plate warpage so they went to the different metal brew plate with more mass (but identical rotational mass) with same cera-metalic friction material, then to the revised organic clutch ...at least I think that's the approx lineage.

Maybe Tim has some insight ...could be a lot in common between parades and driveways :hide:

:biggrin:

[Carnut]

I wish I knew what the Ford engineers know about this issue. Maybe the only fix is to get an extended waranty.

Anyway, I'm really getting off topic here. Hope the Boss owners don't have have to deal with it.

[68fastback]

I wish I knew what the Ford engineers know about this issue. Maybe the only fix is to get an extended waranty.

Anyway, I'm really getting off topic here. Hope the Boss owners don't have have to deal with it.

I bet they know a whole lot :cool: ;-)