PDA

View Full Version : Mustang Restomod



Pages : [1] 2 3

Carnut
05-19-2010, 01:43 PM
I have been doing a 1966 Mustang Fastback Restomod for a number of years. I am getting close to completion. I will try and recreate the important parts of a series I did elsewhere but no longer have. Below is a summary, I will add to it as time progresses. I thought it would be helpfull to discuss problems with the build and the fixes for anyone wanting to attempt the same thing.

Donor car is a 1966 Fastback Mustang. It was originally a V-8 Automatic car, drum brakes, pretty generic.

The car lacked power, braked poorly and steered like a worn out truck.

Engine is replaced with a 347 Stroker.

Transmission is replaced with a 96 F-150 4R70W transmission

Steering has been replaced with a Total Control rack and pinion conversion. Front end completely rebuilt with stock parts.

Brakes have been replace with a 4 wheel disc set up and dual master cylinder. Granada front, Explorer rear.

Cooling is a 93 Mustang radiator with dual Spal electric fans

Rear end is a Currie 9 inch Ford with 3:89 gear and limited slip with 31 spline axles.

Safety improvements include a 3 point seat belts and subframe connectors. The dangerous one piece steering shaft has been replaced.

All new glass, paint, and interior.

All new wiring.

Fuel system improvements.

This thread will be a work in progress, much the same as the car.

twobjshelbys
05-19-2010, 03:56 PM
Without pictures it's all a story. :)

Did you see that Galaxy 427 R code car in my pictures from last weekend?

Carnut
05-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Without pictures it's all a story. :)

Did you see that Galaxy 427 R code car in my pictures from last weekend?

:redcard:Pictures will come, I still have many. I'm old and can only do one thing at a time.

No, I missed the photo, will look later.

Iceman
05-19-2010, 06:56 PM
pics will be good :) This is cool stuff!

Birdman
05-19-2010, 07:47 PM
Can't wait to see all the :pics: of this build ....:waiting2:

Iceman
05-19-2010, 08:14 PM
Cool. 4WD...

:eyesinmailbox:



You think it's funny but I smuggled out 1 pic from when iI was there hiding in the shadows during this build. Check it out!

twobjshelbys
05-19-2010, 09:12 PM
No, I missed the photo, will look later.

Look here:

http://stangsunited.com/showthread.php?382-Shelby-American-Collection-Boulder-CO

4th post, 3rd photo. I have more detailed photos from last year but they are all on SM or TS.

Carnut
05-20-2010, 12:04 AM
Engine Choice

Out of all the possibilities, I started with a 5.0 block. Sure there are other choices but you have to remember the 64 to 66 engine bay is narrow between the spring towers. Another consideration is weight. These early Mustangs came in at about 2800 lbs which is really light for a stock car.

Why not a 351 then? A 351 has a taller block and is therefore wider than the 289/302 basic motor which the 5.0 is. Compromises have to be made with cramped headers and short intakes loosing some of the power you would get from the smaller motor.

I still wanted more cubic inches, so I chose to stroke and bore it 347 cubic inches which is about the limit for this little motor. The bottom of the bores have to be clearanced for the rods and some of the main bearing webs is cut to make room for the bottom of the piston skirt as it goes down inside the bore. The bottom end will be reinforced by using a steel girdle. This is basically a chunk of steel that bolts all of the main bearing caps together and really stiffens up the block. Large windows are cut into the girdle to make room for the crank throws and to minimize weight.

I choose Probe Industries premium stroker kit. It feature a forged steel crankshaft, forged steel rods, forged aluminum pistons and free floating wrist pins. We used the lighter pins to reduce reciprocating weight. Additionally, these parts will handle 300 to 400 horsepower of nitrous if I so elect. We are also using Calico coated bearings which reduces wear. The compression ratio will be 10 to 1, allowing the use of pump premium. Helping to seal the pistons are Total Seal gapless rings. Gapless rings reduce the leakage of gas into the crankcase resulting in additional horse power gains.

Moving upward, I am using AFR aluminum cylinder heads which have been ported "on the flow bench". The traditional individually mounted rocker arms on studs are replaced with Probe Industries shaft mounted rocker arms. Individually mounted rocker arms actually move around each time the valve opens and closes and begin to fatigue the first time the valve opens. As the rpm increases the more movement occurs and eventually you have a failure. With the shaft mounted rockers, the movement is almost non existent, allowing the valve train to live a lot longer at higher rpm. Higher rpm is where the horsepower is so we want that. The heads are bolted to the block using ARP studs and Cometic head gaskets. Cometic head gaskets are the next best thing to copper "O" rings.

The camshaft is a solid roller cam by Schneider cams. Roller cams are really the only way to go now days vs the old flat tappet cams of yesteryear. Oil manufactures have taken out of their oil, the chemicals that cushion and protect cast iron cams and lifters. These chemicals are primarily zinc and phosphoris. Roller cams are made of steel which is much harder and use a little steel wheel to ride on the cam surface and don't need zinc and phosphoris. Roller cams can also be made with steeper ramps and profiles giving you more valve lift with shorter durations resulting in more horsepower and torque. All good things.

Topping off the engine is an Edelbrock divorced plane intake manifold. This manifold is basically a cast version of the individual runner manifolds found on many race motors. There is actually an air gap around each runner and hot oil is kept away from the runners. The runners run cooler, allowing more dense air to flow, and of course more power. It also creates a really cool place to hide acorns. A Holley 750 double pumper carburetor provides the fuel air mix to the cylinder.

Attached are pics of the cam card and the motor.

Crap, what's up with these weiny little attachments, I can't read them.

Carnut
05-21-2010, 01:20 AM
TRANSMISSION

As with the engine, there are many choices on what to do for the transmission.

These old cars did not come with overdrive transmissions either with a manual transmission or an automatic. I wanted overdrive for better gas mileage and less rpm while cruising on the highway.

I wanted to stick with an automatic because it was what the car came with.

The only practical choices seemed to be a later Ford automatic that would bolt to a Windsor style block which is different that the modular motors Ford now produces. That left me with an AOD, AODE 4R70 or an EOD.

The EOD is the strongest but also the biggest physically and will not fit without major modications to the transmission tunnel.

The AOD is mechanically controlled and the smallest, but also the weakest of the bunch.

That left the AODE and the 4R70 as well as the 4R70W. These are all about the same physical size and all are computer controlled. I picked the 4R70W, the stongest of the bunch. The donor was a 96 F-150. The "W" designation is for wide ratio which gives you 2.84 first gear vs the anemic 2.42 in a regular 4R70. This gear will get you out of the hole quicker.

I had the transmission rebuilt with additional Alto racing clutches and a Kevalar overdrive band. The shafts were replace with hardened shafts and the drum is already steel. The valving was modified as well as some other internal parts. The tailshaft and tailshaft housing were also replaced with a shorty unit to fit the Mustang.

With all improvements to the transmission, I am ready for some really high horsepower. The torque converter remained the only weak link so it was replace with a Precision Industries multi disc lock up converter good for about 1200 horsepower. It is really a nice piece, billet steel and no short cuts like a lot of other aftermarket race converters. It has a stall speed of 2200-2400 rpm. With the low first gear and this stall, I should be into the horsepower range almost immediately.

I had problems with this package though. How to control the transmission and the torque converter didn't want to fit.

The control was relatively easy. Baumann engineering makes a stand alone programmable computer. It requires the installation of a rather large wiring harness and termination of a crapload of wires. Baumann has a website at www.becontrols.com (http://www.becontrols.com) if you are interested in more details of how their computer works. They also have some good tranny information.

The other problem was when I tried to install the transmission, I couldn't get any clearance between the torque converter and the flexplate. This is an absolute no-no. Installing it that way could ruin the front pump in the transmission or work against the thrust bearing in the motor. I called on it and reseached it. I kept getting "you don't have the torque converter on all the way". After spending days on trying to get on all the way and no less than 12 aborted transmission installs, I called Precision's tech line. At first they said the same thing but I told them it wasn't going on any further. I could feel it go on the three stages and then hear the final clunk as it went in the pump. They agreed it had to be on all the way.

The minimum and maximum clearance should be which is .060 inch to .125 inch. The solution was to fabricate a spacer out of .075 in steel plate duplicating the holes and shape of the engine and transmission. I used a plasma cutter to cut out the shape and a step drill to make the holes. Had it done in an hour. The tolerances in the transmission, engine, torque converter and flexplate all stacked up and made it unusually tight.

After I had the transmission up again for the final time, more problems. There was no room for my old shifter. The old shifter uses a rod, and there was no way a rod was going to work.

I didn't want to lose the look of the 66 shifter and console because they are pretty cool looking. I didn't want an aftermarket shifter because I would have to lose the console. My solution was a 6696 shifter. I will tell you about that in the next installment. I'll add some pics to this post a little later but heck, once you've seen one transmission, you've seem them all.

Carnut
05-21-2010, 07:38 PM
I'm going to add some relays for my fan and fuel pump

Birdman
05-21-2010, 08:30 PM
Interesting info on the conversion. I have to say you really need to be creative when it comes to making things fit and work the way you want them to. Nicely written article....love the wiring diagram nut , that might work in my basement......lol

Ebony Princess
05-22-2010, 02:10 PM
TRANSMISSION

As with the engine, there are many choices on what to do for the transmission.

These old cars did not come with overdrive transmissions either with a manual transmission or an automatic. I wanted overdrive for better gas mileage and less rpm while cruising on the highway.

I wanted to stick with an automatic because it was what the car came with.

The only practical choices seemed to be a later Ford automatic that would bolt to a Windsor style block which is different that the modular motors Ford now produces. That left me with an AOD, AODE 4R70 or an EOD.

The EOD is the strongest but also the biggest physically and will not fit without major modications to the transmission tunnel.

The AOD is mechanically controlled and the smallest, but also the weakest of the bunch.

That left the AODE and the 4R70 as well as the 4R70W. These are all about the same physical size and all are computer controlled. I picked the 4R70W, the stongest of the bunch. The donor was a 96 F-150. The "W" designation is for wide ratio which gives you 2.84 first gear vs the anemic 2.42 in a regular 4R70. This gear will get you out of the hole quicker.

I had the transmission rebuilt with additional Alto racing clutches and a Kevalar overdrive band. The shafts were replace with hardened shafts and the drum is already steel. The valving was modified as well as some other internal parts. The tailshaft and tailshaft housing were also replaced with a shorty unit to fit the Mustang.

With all improvements to the transmission, I am ready for some really high horsepower. The torque converter remained the only weak link so it was replace with a Precision Industries multi disc lock up converter good for about 1200 horsepower. It is really a nice piece, billet steel and no short cuts like a lot of other aftermarket race converters. It has a stall speed of 2200-2400 rpm. With the low first gear and this stall, I should be into the horsepower range almost immediately.

I had problems with this package though. How to control the transmission and the torque converter didn't want to fit.

The control was relatively easy. Baumann engineering makes a stand alone programmable computer. It requires the installation of a rather large wiring harness and termination of a crapload of wires. Baumann has a website at www.becontrols.com (http://www.becontrols.com) if you are interested in more details of how their computer works. They also have some good tranny information.

The other problem was when I tried to install the transmission, I couldn't get any clearance between the torque converter and the flexplate. This is an absolute no-no. Installing it that way could ruin the front pump in the transmission or work against the thrust bearing in the motor. I called on it and reseached it. I kept getting "you don't have the torque converter on all the way". After spending days on trying to get on all the way and no less than 12 aborted transmission installs, I called Precision's tech line. At first they said the same thing but I told them it wasn't going on any further. I could feel it go on the three stages and then hear the final clunk as it went in the pump. They agreed it had to be on all the way.

The minimum and maximum clearance should be which is .060 inch to .125 inch. The solution was to fabricate a spacer out of .075 in steel plate duplicating the holes and shape of the engine and transmission. I used a plasma cutter to cut out the shape and a step drill to make the holes. Had it done in an hour. The tolerances in the transmission, engine, torque converter and flexplate all stacked up and made it unusually tight.

After I had the transmission up again for the final time, more problems. There was no room for my old shifter. The old shifter uses a rod, and there was no way a rod was going to work.

I didn't want to lose the look of the 66 shifter and console because they are pretty cool looking. I didn't want an aftermarket shifter because I would have to lose the console. My solution was a 6696 shifter. I will tell you about that in the next installment. I'll add some pics to this post a little later but heck, once you've seen one transmission, you've seem them all.

:goodpost:

Carnut
05-22-2010, 08:00 PM
TRANSMISSION MOUNT

This transmission is big. I have about a 1/4 inch clearance on the left and right sides and about 1/2 inch clearance to the tunnel on the top. The transmission is still longer than the oringinal and a new transmission mount had to be fabricated. The old mount attaches to the subframe rails with wimpy sheet metal tabs. The first pass would likely rip out.

To accommodate adding heavy tabs and getting a good weld surface, I reinforced the subframe. I took some 3 inch x 3 inch steel tube with an inside dimension to match my sub frame. I cut one side of the tube off and slipped it over the subframe. It was through bolted and weld and is solid as a rock. I added steel wing plates to allow the installation of a 1 inch x 2 inch steel tube crossmember. I had to cut it out and make a recessed perch for the mount plate to transmission. Attached is a pic of the mount that I made this morning. It is now painted and installed on the car, the transmission install is complete.

The driveshaft needs to be shortened and the electrical connections made to the computer.

I still have to complete the 6696 shifter, write up later on that.

Carnut
05-23-2010, 07:50 PM
HEADERS

When putting a bigger transmission in a car that wasn't originally designed for it, it creates a lot of issues to be worked out.

Headers are no different. Header manufactures prototype original cars with orginal equipment and the pipes clear those stock pieces. I had a set of long tube headers for the car and, not surprisingly, they no longer fit. Stuff is in the way.

The 4R70 housing has ears cast into it, presumably to make assembly line work easier. They are a place to hook on lifting eyes to move them around the shop floor and probably a convenient way of holding the transmission when it is assembled. Out of the four ears on my transmission, three are now gone to clear things, including the two on the front. The header tubes hit them. That takes care of only part of the problem.

The collectors hit the transmission pan on the right hand side. No problem, I hacked them off at an angle and rotated them. A quick weld job and right hand side now fits. Horray.

The left hand side is another issue. The collector is to close to electrical stuff, rubber cable covers and the shift lever. The solution is to hack a sliver out of the collector for some clearance. It will still be too hot for the cable rubber. To solve this, I am going to make a heat shield out of stainless sheet metal and attach it to the transmission using tabs. The shiney stainless will help reflect heat. I am still waiting on the stupid lever from Ford so I am stuck until I get it. I need to see how everything fits. SEE POST 19, I found a better solution

It will work out in the end, patience will prevail.

mustang loco
05-24-2010, 10:49 AM
can't wait to see finish NUT,!!

The Bone
05-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Nice writeup Nut.
I have a suggestion on the heat shield. Stainless is nice but for a heat shield I would suggest aluminum because it will block the heat and not absorb heat. Stainless will get hot and stay hot where aluminum will dissipate the heat faster.
I like the trans mount very nice. the frame rails on these cars are not that strong. good idea to beef up that area.
Sounds like it is coming along. When I put headers on my car I had to re-rout the power steering hoses to the ram. I also had issues with them rubbing on the frame of the car.I warped them in the nomex wrap for the spark plugs to keep them from burning on the headers I replaces them 3 times before I worked the bugs out.What a PIA.

Birdman
05-24-2010, 11:59 PM
HEADERS

When putting a bigger transmission in a car that wasn't originally designed for it, it creates a lot of issues to be worked out.

Headers are no different. Header manufactures prototype original cars with orginal equipment and the pipes clear those stock pieces. I had a set of long tube headers for the car and, not surprisingly, they no longer fit. Stuff is in the way.

The 4R70 housing has ears cast into it, presumably to make assembly line work easier. They are a place to hook on lifting eyes to move them around the shop floor and probably a convenient way of holding the transmission when it is assembled. Out of the four ears on my transmission, three are now gone to clear things, including the two on the front. The header tubes hit them. That takes care of only part of the problem.

The collectors hit the transmission pan on the right hand side. No problem, I hacked them off at an angle and rotated them. A quick weld job and right hand side now fits. Horray.

The left hand side is another issue. The collector is to close to electrical stuff, rubber cable covers and the shift lever. The solution is to hack a sliver out of the collector for some clearance. It will still be too hot for the cable rubber. To solve this, I am going to make a heat shield out of stainless sheet metal and attach it to the transmission using tabs. The shiney stainless will help reflect heat. I am still waiting on the stupid lever from Ford so I am stuck until I get it. I need to see how everything fits.

It will work out in the end, patience will prevail.

:pics:

Carnut
05-25-2010, 03:15 AM
Here area various pics of the trans area showing how tight everything is.

Carnut
05-27-2010, 01:11 PM
After I had a chance to look at all of the implications of hacking the driver's side collector a much better solution was found. If you look in the photo at the top right you can see an empty area below where the pan and tranmission case. I am merely going to relocate the cable to this area which solves the tight clearance issue. A little heat wrap on the collector and no melting rubber. THe relocation will be easy. I will take and make a flat plate and bolt it to the side of the transmission. The orginal cable bracket is then rotated 180 degrees and bolted to the new flat plate, between the flat plate and tranmission pan. The cable will now be downabout about 2 inches and further away from the collector by about 1.5 inches. It will still be above the bottom of the pan is protected.

I'll post a new pic when completed.

It just goes to show, there are usually options if you think about them long enough.

The Bone
05-27-2010, 01:43 PM
Hey Nut
Things look pretty full under there Header wrap will help with heat considerably. doesn't look very pleasing even when done right but may be necessary to keep temps down. Good thing you dont have to run cats.
The other option may be to run shorty headers instead of long tube. Is this going to see the street as well as the track?

Carnut
05-27-2010, 07:27 PM
Hey Nut
Things look pretty full under there Header wrap will help with heat considerably. doesn't look very pleasing even when done right but may be necessary to keep temps down. Good thing you dont have to run cats.
The other option may be to run shorty headers instead of long tube. Is this going to see the street as well as the track?

I consider midlength headers, which would certainly solve the problem. Considering the value of the current headers plus the new ones, you're talking a grand or more.

The relocated bracket will be provide a enough clearance. plus its cost would be zero. :spend:

The Bone
05-28-2010, 01:33 PM
I vote not to change the headers.
This stuff is expensive. I have been thinking about redoing my wife's car and do something like you are doing.
it's good to know how to use tools.

Carnut
05-28-2010, 06:05 PM
I vote not to change the headers.
This stuff is expensive. I have been thinking about redoing my wife's car and do something like you are doing.
it's good to know how to use tools.

I built the plate to relocate the bracket. It acts as shield to and is aluminum, bolted to the transmission case. The transmission should act somewhat like a heat sink taking heat away from the bracket. Combine that with a little thermal wrap and the increased air gap, we are in business.

Carnut
05-30-2010, 05:56 PM
:new2:THE 6696 SHIFTER

BEHOLD THE 6696 SHIFTER. I have finally finished what is probably the only 6696 shifter in the world. As previously stated in the early posts, I wanted a shifter that would work with the new transmission. That required me to go to a cable setup because there simply wasn't enough room between the tunnel and the transmission for a solid rod. The attached photos show the completed shifter with the cable bracket and a shot of the new bracket at the transmission to get it away from the exhaust.

To make the existing 66 shifter work, I bought a 96 Mustang Shifter and married the two. This is not a job for the faint of heart. I used the 66 upper and the 96 lower hence the 6696 designation. Following are some of the major mods..........


Used 96 bottom plate to attach the Mustang cable assembly to
Used 96 shift lever which is a different ratio and has a big dog leg to align with the cable bracket and clear the transmission
Machined spacers and brass bushing to install 96 lever into 66 housing.
Machine a new drive detent in the selector and modified the 66 detent tang to reach the new detent (it was deeper).
Installed 96 complete cable assembly for control between the shifter lever and the new transmission lever.
Used 96 F-150 gear selector arm at the transmission. It also has a dog leg the goes the wrong way. I cut it and flipped it around, welded it and got out of way of the exhaust.
This ended up being a first class, precision fit conversion. It is a good thing I did all the work because a shop likely would killed me on the hours, probably near 40 of actual design, machine work and other labor. Cost of parts was less than $200. The end result is a completely stock, "points perfect", shifter from the inside of the car and a late model cable actuated shifter with a solid feel, from a mechanical standpoint, no binding or slop at all.

68fastback
05-30-2010, 06:13 PM
Wow! ...nice solution to a tough problem, Bruce!!!

...old squirrels are very wise! :smile:

Carnut
05-31-2010, 01:43 PM
BRAKES

With all this new go power, I needed some stop power to go along with it. Most early Mustangs came with old fashion drum brakes and while they worked in their day, they faded easily, didn't work when really wet and just aren't up to the task. Prior to 67, the Fords used a single master cylinder which gave you no secondary braking if something is wrong with your brake system. So with all these drawbacks, it seems logical to convert to disc brakes.

There are many kits in the market to convert to front discs and keep the rear drums or convert to 4 wheel discs and of course dual master cylinders. These kits can get pretty pricey and some rely on less than best mounting brackets etc.

I wanted 4 wheel power disc brakes and a dual master cylinder. Luckily these Early Mustangs are lightweight so the "killer" giant brakes aren't necessary. I also wanted to keep the 15 inch wheels for that vintage look. All of these qualifiers limited my choices somewhat. This first post will deal with the front brakes and go on from there.

In the mid-seventies, Ford built a 4 door sedan called a Granada. It was a supposed mid-size sedan but it was heavy at about 4,000 lbs, a good 1200 lbs heavier than my Mustang. Many of the front end parts designs were a carry over more or less. Before all these aftermarket companies started with their kits, these Granada conversions were very popular. The nice thing is you should be able to pick up all the parts from a junk yard for about a $100.00. Added new parts would be pads, new bearings (if needed) grease seals and a set of rebuilt calipers.

From the junkyard, you want the spindles, rotors, calipers etc as assemblies. You also want the tie rod ends that attach to the spindles because they fit the hole in the spindle; the Mustang one's are too small. The new parts bolt right up to the Mustang upper and lower control arms, what could be easier?? Obviously when you get the parts home, you want to disassemble, clean and replace and parts you cannot re-use. I replaced the wheel bearings and the calipers to be safe. I also repainted everything.

Once you get the assemblies mounted on the car, you need to relocate the flexible brake line fitting to a point about 6 inches ahead of the spindles. This is necessary to allow the wheels to turn left and right and keep from binding the line. I simply used my orginal mounting tab ( where the hard line and the flexible line join) in a new location. I joined the old line with a new piece of hardline and a union at the old line to extend it to the new location. Check your new mounting my turning the wheels through their full travel without pulling on the rubber and keeping them out pinch locations within the suspension. Keep your routing tight to the subframe and this should be no problem.

With the Granada tie rods, you will not be able to align the toe on the car because it makes the tie rod assembly too long. The fix is simple however. Cut 1/4 inch off each end of the tie rod adjuster sleeve and 1/4 inch off each of the tie rod ends. This should give you plenty of tie rod adjustment. I used a chop saw on mine but remember to keep the abrasive dust out out the tie rod end. I wrapped this area with some duct tape. Once the ends are cut, carefully chamfer the sharp ends of the cut threads in a bench grinder. Chamfer at a 45 degree angle and don't get carried away, it is just to help you start the theads. It is also helpfull to remember there are left hand and right hand threads and it can be very frustrating trying to screw the rods and sleeves back together as righty tighty only works half the time.

Mount your new spindles to the upper and lower control arms, use new rubber cups if your old ones are cracked. Make sure the tie rod ends in the spindle are toward the back of the car. Torque the nuts on the ball joints per manufacturer's specifications and install new cotter pins.

Turn your used rotors, and grease the wheel bearings, use a new seal. Mount the assemblies on the spindle and adjust the wheel bearings. Mount your calipers using new pads, connect the brake line and bleed your brakes. Remember the bleeder screws go up. Check for leaks.

You're done. The attached photos show the junkyard donor parts and the new parts on the car. You'll note the 15 inch wheels fit.

If you are planning on rebuilding your front end, now is time. I used complete new control arms, upper and lower, each side. I also replace the complete steering which might the next post.

As an aside, this conversion also works on Falcons and Fairlanes from this time frame. I have a set of Granada stuff in reserve for my 66 Fairlane if and when I ever get around to doing it.

Birdman
05-31-2010, 02:45 PM
Nice job Nut, this reminds me of how Ford put the F250 brakes on the F150 Lightning. Makes for much better stopping power for sure. :wtg:

Alloy Dave
05-31-2010, 02:51 PM
Aren't disk brakes also lighter? Definitely easier to work on, at least for fronts. Well done Mr. Nut...I did a conversion similar on an old Chevelle once.

Carnut
05-31-2010, 03:28 PM
MASTER CYLINDER

Now that I have disc brakes front and rear, I have created a new problem. The existing master cylinder does not have enough volume to fill four big calipers and the pedal just goes to the floor. There is only one way to correct this, replace the master cylinder with one having more volume. There is little room between the fire wall and the spring tower where the master cylinder goes. I also have power brakes, so this this makes the space even more limited. I could eliminate the power brakes, giving me a larger selection of cylinders or I could be a hard head and keep the power. Of course I chose the hard headed route.

I searched the web for parts to make this conversion. Eventually I found what I was looking for at Master Brakes, they had a kit for power disc/disc set ups. What you get is a new 7 inch booster, a booster relocation bracket to get it closer to the firewall and a dual master cylinder with a 15/16 inch bore.

Installation is pretty straight forward, remove the old master cylinder and booster assembly. Drill out the threaded mounting holds and install the new bracket and cylinder assembly with the new through bolts. Split the front and rear brakes and connect the lines to the proper locations on the new cylinder. Seems simple enough............not. An education on pedal ratios, volume and pressure was needed.

A big problem with this kit is it eliminates the original booster bracket to get it closer to the firewall. The problem here is that the orginal bracket has a bellcrank assembly that changes the pedal ratio to about a 5 to 1 or less at the master cylinder. This allowed Ford to used a manual brake pedal with a 7.6 to pedal ratio (sutable for manual brakes). Sounds like no big deal and the kit supplier makes no mention of this in their installation instructions. Well, it is a big deal. The larger pedal ratio reduces the travel inside the cylinder giving you less volume which is one of the reasons for making the conversion.

This reduced volume drove me nuts, I kept bleeding the system and bleeding the system. Nothing, pedal goes nearly to the floor, not a good feeling. Finally it dawned on me after isolating every component in the system that problem had to be travel. I finally got it to work by taking every bit of free play out of the pedal and the master cylinder push rod. If you don't have enough free play, the valve in the booster will not close and you just have a big vacuum leak. I developed a new pedal adjustment procedure, at least I never read or heard of anyone doing it this way. I connected a hand held vacuum pump and guage to the booster (Mighty Vac) and put the booster under vacuum. I kept removing free play from the pedal a little at a time until the booster lost vacuum (guage shows this). I backed it off one turn and worked the pedal several times and it did what it was supposed to. Problem solved after screwing with it for weeks. I now have a hard pedal with about 2 inches of travel, perfect.

With this increased pedal ratio, I probably don't need the power booster. But I wasn't going to give up. The brakes will be sensitive for sure but, what the heck, I won.

This is another case of when you modify something, it creates issues. This install was no different. Attached are some photos that show the install. They are the new master installed, the old master and the new master out of the car.

BTW, when doing all this brake work, the chances of having spilled or leaking fluid is great. IT WILL RUIN YOUR PAINT. I keep a large spray bottle handy filled with water and a little Dawn dishwashing soap handy and I mean within immediate reach. If you get fluid on the painted surface, just saturate it with the spray bottle. It could save your paint and it cleans up nicely with a few paper towels.

Carnut
05-31-2010, 03:36 PM
Thanks.

The disc and drum setups are probably about the same weight. Of course if you use aluminum calipers and a drilled rotor the discs will be lighter. A thin drag race rotor would be a lot lighter but no good for the street or other types of racing.

This conversion uses the old cast iron calipers and heavy disc with cooling fins between the two brake surfaces.

Oh, one final piece about this conversion.

REAR DISC BRAKE

I mentioned earlier that I had four wheel disc brakes but didn't mention what I did on the rear.

I used mid ninety Explorer disc brakes, you can them from Ford Racing or do what I did. I did not have strong enough differential to handle the power from the new motor. So I converted it to a 9 inch Ford with a limited slip and a 3.89 gear. After checking various manufactures, I decided to go to Curry. They fabricated for me, a new housing with the big bearing ends set up specifically for the 66 Mustang.

Curry offered a complete rear disc brake conversion with the housing and the price was really good. It came with the caliper mounting brackets, the rotors, the calipers and the kit for the parking brake cables. It was a complete "no brainer" installation. I was extremely happy with the whole unit. I replace the rear springs while I was it and used the larger U bolts to attach it to the springs.

The brakes use a slightly smaller rear caliper it won't lock up the rear brakes before the front. I did use an adjustable porportioning valve for fine tuning if I need it. No pics of this install as it was very simple and once you've seen one rear end, you've seen them all. More or less.

Black Vert SS
05-31-2010, 04:21 PM
Incredible patience and sticktoitivness!!:wow2:

Carnut
05-31-2010, 05:51 PM
Thanks, when I build something I want to proud of my work. All of details of a build add up to being a happy build or car someone turned into a piece of crap. I've seen both and those in between. I want to be above tweener class. While it does cost money, the attention to detail is just as important. You can throw tens of thousands at a prooject and still end up with a crapmobile.

Plus, I really like figuring things out.

68fastback
05-31-2010, 06:08 PM
Nice job, Bruce and thanks for sharing all this goo dinsight. Very interesting solutions and nice write up.

:tiphat:

...squirrels are so clever! ;-)

Carnut
05-31-2010, 06:15 PM
Nice job, Bruce and thanks for sharing all this goo dinsight. Very interesting solutions and nice write up.

:tiphat:

...squirrels are so clever! ;-)

Thanks Dan. Next article coming up is the rack and pinion steering conversion. Probably Monday, I can only put parts on so fast. Then maybe cooling system. Both real issues with these old Mustangs.

Alloy Dave
06-01-2010, 01:01 AM
Looking forward to next chapter. :popcorn:

68fastback
06-01-2010, 01:48 AM
+1

(trunk mods for winter acorn storage?)

The Bone
06-01-2010, 02:35 PM
Nut you're problem is with the amount of fluid that you're master cylinder will move not the amount in the bowel. Try a master cylinder with a bigger diameter than the stock one. Or try a M/C from a Granada or Mustang and keep the brake booster. They also make a conversion booster kit for changing from drum to disk. It comes with a smaller booster for the 68 cause there is lass room than in the 66. Something to check out. That way you may not have to relocate things

68fastback
06-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Thanks Dan. Next article coming up is the rack and pinion steering conversion. Probably Monday, I can only put parts on so fast. Then maybe cooling system. Both real issues with these old Mustangs.

What I really like about how you're doing things is your nicely balanced decisions on cost/function/appearance, so makes me think rather than something new like the Total Control rack you'd likely adapt a Mustang-II rack or someting like that ...cheaper, light, durable, parts still available in the aftermarket, a Ford part, etc. Am I thinking like a squirrel yet? :smile:

Cooling I have no hunches. The stock 2-core, even in aluminum, is woefully inadequate. Might be hard to adapt something. This might be one where an aftermarket 3 (or 4) core specialty piece might be worth it?

I know you already have the pieces ...it's just fun to try and guess in advance how you might have approached it.

Ok, give us some hints, nuts!! Monday is still 5 days away! ;-)

Carnut
06-01-2010, 08:06 PM
Nut you're problem is with the amount of fluid that you're master cylinder will move not the amount in the bowel. Try a master cylinder with a bigger diameter than the stock one. Or try a M/C from a Granada or Mustang and keep the brake booster. They also make a conversion booster kit for changing from drum to disk. It comes with a smaller booster for the 68 cause there is lass room than in the 66. Something to check out. That way you may not have to relocate things

You are exactly correct, it is the amount of fluid the cylinder can move. The cylinders you mentioned were still too long (or at least that is what the catalog I had said). Increasing the bore size would have resulted in more volume but less hydralic pressure. I am using a 15/16 inch bore which is about maximum. A one inch bore or bigger would have taken a lot more pedal effort.

There would not have been an issue if the pedal ratio was about 5 to 1. My setup has a ratio of nearly 7 to 1. It is hard to get enough stroke on the piston. Changing my ratio would have required me to modify a lot of stuff, the pedal support or the cylinder position.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make. By using the vacuum guage to take all of the slack out of the system I was able to get more stroke than the traditional method of setting the pedal. I get a hard pedal now in about 2 inches of travel

Carnut
06-01-2010, 08:26 PM
What I really like about how you're doing things is your nicely balanced decisions on cost/function/appearance, so makes me think rather than something new like the Total Control rack you'd likely adapt a Mustang-II rack or someting like that ...cheaper, light, durable, parts still available in the aftermarket, a Ford part, etc. Am I thinking like a squirrel yet? :smile:

Cooling I have no hunches. The stock 2-core, even in aluminum, is woefully inadequate. Might be hard to adapt something. This might be one where an aftermarket 3 (or 4) core specialty piece might be worth it?

I know you already have the pieces ...it's just fun to try and guess in advance how you might have approached it.

Ok, give us some hints, nuts!! Monday is still 5 days away! ;-)

No, I bit the bullet on the Total Control rack. :spend:Most other racks have to bolt to a crossmember with tabs and their mounting position precludes me from being able to remove the pan. Most require reversing the spindles which is front steer and then the geometry all changes. The Total Control, while more expensive solves all of those concerns. The important part is the steering geometry remains the same including Ackerman, I can pull the pan, it looks really cool.

The cooling issue with these old Mustangs is not enough radiator surface area and a vertical flow core. :mad: They fixed this quite well on later Fox bodied Mustangs. :yes:On the early stangs, you have an itty bitty radiator opening and the sub frame rails are too narrow, heck the radiator wasn't even 18 inches wide. The fix should be clear, :idea:the challenge is how to do it and maintain a budget. BTW, a stock radiator won't fit .......................................or will it ?:innocent:

And you're right, I already have the parts and the method to make them work. :ohyes:

68fastback
06-02-2010, 02:26 AM
I had a hunch it would be the Total Control or a retrofit but didn't realize the benefits of the TC rack. Can't wait to see how it went in. ;-)

Yeah the early the stangs were very narrow up front ..the '7s/8s were a bit wider. A big cross-flow would be nice but structural changes needed, I would think. A 4-core in the stock configuration would probably fit but still only increase capacity by about 35-40% over a 2-core ...you prolly need at least twice that?

Anyhow, just noodling it for fun.

Carnut
06-02-2010, 01:37 PM
RACK AND PINION STEERING

In this day and age, we have all become accustomed to rack and pinion steering. It is precise and has good feel to it. Early Mustangs used a older design recirculating ball gear box which don't have that same feel. Put 40 years and 6 digit mileage on one and you get that really loose feel feel as go down the road. A rebuilt gearbox would improve that some but it will never feel like the newer cars. The early Mustangs also used a solid steel steering shaft from the box to the steering wheel. This solid shaft was a real safety problem and many deaths resulted from the driver being impaled by it during a collision. In 67, a "rag joint" was introduced to correct this issue.

I wanted to make my Mustang a little safer and I wanted it to feel like a newer car. The existing gearbox was so worn that it increased stering wheel effort.

Over the last few years, I noticed a lot of rack and pinion installs and always asked the owners what they thought of it. I was surprised that some were really disappointed and most of the complaints were that it didn't steer right, it was hard to turn, it looked ugly. Some of them were real hack jobs. Bumpsteer seemed prevalent. I found a few owners who were delighted though, without exception they had Total Control conversions, power and non-power. So I did my research and Total Control won hands down.

The rack installs in the same position as the existing steering link and the geometry of the suspension remains the same. It remains a rear steer car as was the original. No chintzy bumpsteer eliminators or joints, it uses the orginal tie rods.

The install was pretty straighforward.

Remove the exisitng gearbox and steering linkage. Remove the bolt in brace just behind the spring towers and remove the steering column.

Bolt on the new rack support brackets into existing holes on the subframe, align the rack and loosely tighten it.

Cut off the existing steering column cover and install a new bearing in the end and install the new shaft. Install the new U jointed shaft between the column rack. Install the miscellaneous pieces to support the column end.

Attached the existing tie rod ends to the rack. Lower the car and settle it, tighten the rack bolts and align the car.

This install was a no muss, no fuss install. I can't wait to drive it.

The only issue I had was self imposed, the new Milodon oil pan rubbed on the rubber rack seals. The fix was pretty easy, I raised the motor 3/8 inch with a spacer on the motor mount to engine connection.

See the following posts for pics.

Carnut
06-02-2010, 01:48 PM
Here are pics of the old parts and some of the prep

Carnut
06-02-2010, 01:50 PM
Here are pics of the completed rack

The Bone
06-02-2010, 01:52 PM
Radiators on the 66 were considerably smaller than the 68 like I have. Maybe electric fans and a 4 row will help keep things cool.
You must have a nice place to do all this work. I'm so jealous I got 2 car garage no way can I do this with the 500 in the way

Carnut
06-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Radiators on the 66 were considerably smaller than the 68 like I have. Maybe electric fans and a 4 row will help keep things cool.
You must have a nice place to do all this work. I'm so jealous I got 2 car garage no way can I do this with the 500 in the way

I wouldn't be so concerned with the cooling if I lived in more temperate climate. But it gets hot here, really hot. Stay tuned, I think you will find my solution interesting.

As for the garage, I am fortunate enough to have a pretty well equipped shop here. It makes all of the work I've done a little easier but, all of this can be done out of a two car garage. It is definitely harder, but I did if for years including a full frame off restoration of a 57 T-Bird and I even painted in there. It was just real inconvenient at times.

68fastback
06-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Very nice, nut ...what a nice install!

Carnut
06-02-2010, 08:03 PM
:tiphat2:

Orf
06-02-2010, 10:22 PM
'Nut,

I haven't posted in here - except the 4WD comment early on - in an effort to keep the PWing to a minimum. I have been reading, with great interest, about your project.

I am impressed by how well thought out each step has been.

Kudos to you. Can't wait to see pics of the finished project.


Keep the excellent posts coming...

Alloy Dave
06-02-2010, 11:11 PM
Good job Bruce! It will be interesting to drive to see about the "feel", bumpsteer, and so on.

Carnut
06-02-2010, 11:36 PM
Thanks fellers.

Carnut
06-03-2010, 12:14 AM
COOLING SYSTEM

As anyone who has had one of these early Mustangs, or most any other car from this period, the cooling system sucks.

The Mustang came with a vertical flow 2 or 3 core brass radiator. The surface area was about 18 x 20 inches which ain't much. Add air conditioning and an auto transmission and they just got plain hot if you drove them hard in the summer. Pray you didn't get stuck at a couple of long lights about 5 pm on July 24th with the temperature over 140 in traffic, you were toast. Well cooling has come along way since those days, horizontal flow aluminum radiators and electric fans have made getting home possible on those horrific summer days.

With the added power of my project, I had to do something if I planned driving it. How wonderful it would be to have a "modern" cooling system. Problem is the radiator opening is small and the subframes are narrow reducing what size you can get in there. Available sizes seem to be on the small size and as the Bone said earlier, a new four core might give me another 35 percent. Well, none of these options were good enough so...........................

I bought a new Ford radiator for the 93 Mustang GT, it's huge and has two really wide rows of tubes and a good fin count. Two wide tube rows is much better than 4 rows of narrower ones. This baby has way more than double the orginal radiators capacity, and is a horizontal flow to boot. I haven't done the math but I would guess it will remove 3 to 4 times the heat the old radiator would. Only one problem though, it was too big.

No problem, I have a plasma cutter. So I cut out the opening in radiator core support to about double the orginal size, hard to see in the picture. There just happened to be a convenient reveal in the sheet metal to cut to. The radiator needed to be lowered three inches and the subframe widened by about two inches. The trusty plasma cutter came to my aid again and I notched the front subframes on the top and inside, then I boxed them. This big thing fits. Woohoo!!.

Now I needed a fan, a stock mechanical fan would be too tight. I found just what I needed on the Spal website, dual 12 inch fans moving about 4000 cfrm of air. They came in there own shround with little relief doors top and bottom. The doors open when vehicle speed is up and allow more air yet through the radiator. I used a thermostatic fan relay for 185 degrees for automatic operation.

I bought a blue hose kit for a Fox body V-8 Mustang and adapted it to my radiator. The water pump has to have a driver side inlet so I changed the pump. Another minor issue with fan brackets and timing indicator but I got it to work. My only mistake is I got the big Edelbrock water pump and it wouldn't clear my SFI damper. So I took a grinder to it and removed about a 1/4 inch of aluminum casting all the way around where the damper goes. It fits now. I'm learning to remove anything that gets in my way.

I do have to find a real nice radiator overflow tank. I have some 4 inch aluminum tube, I might make a really cool one.

So now, I have a REAL cooling system. It won't get hot in the summer and neither will I.

Here are the pics.

Birdman
06-03-2010, 12:20 AM
'Nut,

I haven't posted in here - except the 4WD comment early on - in an effort to keep the PWing to a minimum. I have been reading, with great interest, about your project.

I am impressed by how well thought out each step has been.

Kudos to you. Can't wait to see pics of the finished project.


Keep the excellent posts coming...

+1

68fastback
06-03-2010, 03:24 AM
Nice solution and nice work, Bruce!!!

Sounds like it's almost ready for that break-in run to Pittsburgh :shades: ;-)

Carnut
06-03-2010, 03:49 AM
Nice solution and nice work, Bruce!!!

Sounds like it's almost ready for that break-in run to Pittsburgh :shades: ;-)

I hope the cooling improvements lived up to your standards for engineering, cost vs benefit and aesthetic considerations. And you didn't have to wait until Monday.

WHAT"S LEFT?

There are still a number of items left to do before it can make a run to Pittsurgh, including the coin needed to finish up. Among those items are........................


An adequate fuel system. Bigger fuel line and an electric fuel pump. Leaning towards a Holley and 3/8 fuel line and regulator.

Tying down all those horse as we using stock motor mounts. Haven't decide, maybe a tension rod.

Shortening the driveshaft. probably an inch.

Wiring the transmission computer up, adding od cancel button and light, making up a throttle position switch for the carb.

Miscellaneous wiring nit picks.

Port matching the headers and complete the exhaust install. It will be 2.5 inch pipe, two chamber Flowmasters, short turndowns in front of the axle.

Putting the rest of the goodies on the motor, valve covers, carburetor (750 double pump) hoses etc.

Maybe some sort of ladder bars.

Cleaning the ashtray.

I am sure there are a few more.

I'll post up anymore interesting tidbits as they come along.

68fastback
06-03-2010, 05:22 PM
The squirrel still has some work to do! :shades:

Bruce, what's the implications of #4(c) TPS ...for a Holley carb :confused:

#8 ...I've used shortie ladder bars as a compromise ...ones that bolt to axle at the U-clamps and clamp to the leaves back a ways from the front mount. They don't affect susp travel and leaves some room from leaf tortion, e.g. on diagonal entrance over a curbcut, etc. ...but controls axle-wrap fairly well and doesn't really affect ride hardly at all. A 4-link would sure be really nice but no simple retro, I suspect.

Here's another bolt-in solution that's very cool (http://mustangirs.com/):) ...and sort of very correct since it's the original T5 patented design developed for the 'stang by Ford's Klaus Arning (Ralph at FlatRock's dad) in '64 and brought back to life by Duane Carling, Klaus' personal friend. Vintage Mustang -- excellent video (http://mustangirs.com/?video=irs_classic_full)(note at end of video latest CNC billet and hub/bearing improvements now included).

You sure have my admiration on this build ...lots more work and creativity involved than your nice write-ups can possibly reflect. :bow:

Carnut
06-03-2010, 08:28 PM
The TPS shouldn't be too tough, the transmission requires a voltage signal obviously relative to the throttle postion. Baumann recommends a few part numbers and even a way of adapting it to the carburetor. Their suggestion is a bathtub stopper chain and some springs, really, I'm not kidding. I am sure I can mill a nice aluminum bracket and fashion a much more professional linkage. I still have to give it some thought. Bathtub chain indeed.

The rest of the hookup is pretty simple since I bought a complete wiring harness that connects to the three sensors on the transmission. The other end is already teminated in a 24 pin computer connector that plugs into the back of the computer. I then have a pair of wires for neutral safety switch, a pair for the overdrive cancel button, a pair for alternate shift program button, pairs for indicator lights, (o/d cancel and a/program selection) a pair for paddle shifters if I want (not) and of course switched power, always on power and a ground. The biggest chore is where I want to mount the buttons and where the indicator lights go. I am sure I will agonize for a couple of weeks on just those items.

I have the factory console in my car that has an extra storage compartment on it. The compartment has a lift up door. I am thinking about putting the computer and switches in there. Then I can hide everything. No one will be the wiser.

Regarding the rear end traction, I am sticking to the leaf springs. That limits me to old style traction bars, ladder bars at the axles or another variation of axle rotation restraint. Some of the Fox Mustangs used a horizontal damper (shock) to overcome hop and worked pretty well to. My power level will undoubtedly have enough power to overcome any wheel hop. In any event, I need to test drive it to see what it needs, a little or a lot. Ladder bars are still on the top of the list for the reasons you stated.

Thanks for your kind words and you're right, you almost have to spend a day looking it over, up close and personal.

The Bone
06-03-2010, 11:23 PM
I love this project was it was mine.
You could go with heaver springs in the back. The ones on my 68 only have 3 leaves and they are soft. That would help with axle wrap and traction.

I have been looking for a place with a shop so I can do my truck. Its a 59 chevy p/u needs a lot of work.

That radiator looks as big as one in my 68. you will not have a problem cooling things with that one. Nice mod.
Plasma cutter is mans best friend
Keep up the good work.

Carnut
06-05-2010, 10:20 PM
I think I'm going to take a break from it for a week or so, laundry is stacking up.

68fastback
06-06-2010, 02:05 AM
The TPS shouldn't be too tough, the transmission requires a voltage signal obviously relative to the throttle postion. Baumann recommends a few part numbers and even a way of adapting it to the carburetor. Their suggestion is a bathtub stopper chain and some springs, really, I'm not kidding. I am sure I can mill a nice aluminum bracket and fashion a much more professional linkage. I still have to give it some thought. Bathtub chain indeed.

The rest of the hookup is pretty simple since I bought a complete wiring harness that connects to the three sensors on the transmission. The other end is already teminated in a 24 pin computer connector that plugs into the back of the computer. I then have a pair of wires for neutral safety switch, a pair for the overdrive cancel button, a pair for alternate shift program button, pairs for indicator lights, (o/d cancel and a/program selection) a pair for paddle shifters if I want (not) and of course switched power, always on power and a ground. The biggest chore is where I want to mount the buttons and where the indicator lights go. I am sure I will agonize for a couple of weeks on just those items.

I have the factory console in my car that has an extra storage compartment on it. The compartment has a lift up door. I am thinking about putting the computer and switches in there. Then I can hide everything. No one will be the wiser.

Regarding the rear end traction, I am sticking to the leaf springs. That limits me to old style traction bars, ladder bars at the axles or another variation of axle rotation restraint. Some of the Fox Mustangs used a horizontal damper (shock) to overcome hop and worked pretty well to. My power level will undoubtedly have enough power to overcome any wheel hop. In any event, I need to test drive it to see what it needs, a little or a lot. Ladder bars are still on the top of the list for the reasons you stated.

Thanks for your kind words and you're right, you almost have to spend a day looking it over, up close and personal.

Thanks for the TPS explanation, Bruce...

I like the idea of putting the computer and switches in the console compartment ...smart squirrel! :)

mustang loco
06-07-2010, 11:08 AM
As usual,very nice and detailed work and post Nut'!!:tiphat2:

Carnut
06-07-2010, 04:07 PM
SHIFT CABLE ISSUE

While going through the steps of making sure the new 6696 shifter was properly clocked, I discovered the cable was binding up some. I ran through the routing and it seemed okay. I finally surmised that the cable end at the transmission is fixed per the factory design but it could be causing some binding due to cable wear, alignment or something. So, I went to my handy dandy parts assortment and pulled out a flanged bronze bushing, pressed it in the lever end and installed a bolt with a stover nut to an tighten it to allow the bolt shoulder to rotate, but allow me to bolt the cable end behind the stover nut. This gave me a nice rotating stud, turns out this eliminated the bind.

I liked this solution so well, I installed on at the other end, into the shifter arm (at the shifter) and installed one there too. The bushings removed any slop in the ends and provided nice rotating connections at each end of the cable. (Flanged bronze bushings are available at most hardware stores including Ace)

Now that is what I call SMOOTH.

68fastback
06-22-2010, 05:24 PM
Carnut, this all-new product (pg-56 second from top) (http://catalog.proemags.com/publication/7f0ed2a9#/7f0ed2a9/56) sounds like it's addressing your 6696 solution too. Thought you'd be inteested. It's in SEMA'a new hot-rod products listing released today for this fall's SEMA show.

Carnut
06-22-2010, 11:27 PM
Its about time. I will have to go to Lokars site and review but, it doesn't look like it will allow the retention of the stock look in the factory console.

BTW, the 6606 setup appears to work flawlessly now that I solved the binding problem (see previous posts).

68fastback
06-23-2010, 02:15 AM
Its about time. I will have to go to Lokars site and review but, it doesn't look like it will allow the retention of the stock look in the factory console.

BTW, the 6606 setup appears to work flawlessly now that I solved the binding problem (see previous posts).

I thought it was a 6696 :boink:

-lol.

Carnut
06-23-2010, 01:10 PM
:doh2:

Carnut
06-23-2010, 01:57 PM
The Mustang project is continuing, mostly smalll things. Different things are taking my time up so my work has been hit and miss.

I had an issue with the tall FRP aluminum valve covers, they wouldn't fit. After studying the problem, I discovered there was an interference at the upper left hand corner. I've used Probe's shaft mounted rocker arms that incorporate a steel pedestal that is like a long square bar that bolts to the orginal stud holes. The corner protruded into area occupied by the valve cover. I used a small disc sander and chamfered the corner about an 1/8 inch. Now they fit.

Clearance is always an issue in the engine compartment. I installed a Canton 2 qt reservoir (radiator overflow) to the passenger side of the oversized radiator. I had to make an 1.5 thick aluminum spacer bolted to the radiator core support to position it properly to gain clearance for the cap, hood and radiator support. I made the piece on my mill. I now have a 1/4 inch clearance at the top and bottom, another tight fit.

The fuel pump is a Holley blue with a seperate large cannister fuel filter. Mounting space is very limited so I had to make an aluminum bracket out of 4 inch x 4 inch aluminum angle. It will mount tight to the front side of the fuel tank, clearing the rear axle, and bolt to the floor. I am going to use a fuel pressure shut off switch and as added safety, an inertia shut off switch in case I get rear ended (shuts off the fuel in the event of a wreck).

Pictures will follow in a few days.

Carnut
07-01-2010, 08:30 AM
As I said in previous posts, clearance has been an issue on this project. So why should the hood be any different.

It turns out the new higher intake just makes my engine combo a little too high to clear the stock hood. Raising the engine slightly for the rack and pinion clearance with the Milodon 8 quart pan probably didn't help either.

I had a lot of choices here, but the easiest was to just get a new hood. I cut a good deal with the manufacturer and it should arrive in a week or so.

Attached is a picture. It is a 66 hood with a 67 GT 500 style scoop. It gives me about two additional inches clearance. I think this style gives me what a want, added clearance and the appearance of a period correct hood. I also really like the style, better than the 66 GT 350 style (which didn't give me enough clearance).

These last touches are really killing me, its gotten hot here and I have been having to other things that I have foresaken to get this far. I'll post more pics later when progress is sufficient to warrant. BTW, it sucks to be old.

68fastback
07-01-2010, 06:09 PM
Hang in there, Bruce! It will all be worth it. Hood looks great too. Can't wait for the whole enchilada in pics ;-)

Good thing you're not old yet :shades: ...I hear pains come on for days instead of hours then ...prolly just rumor tho :biggrin:

Carnut
07-01-2010, 06:29 PM
I'm sure that's a nasty rumor.

Heck, I don't have an ache or a pain, ever.

Glad you approve of the hood. I think it is understated bad *** looking.

I figure I have taken about 150 lbs out of the car, mostly over the front axle. Fiberglass hood, lightweight aluminum radiator, heads, intake, and replacement of the clunky old steering box. Battery also in trunk. I also think the modern transmission weighs a little less than the old cast iron version, it's a push anyway. So I have a much better weight bias and it should hook up better, and a curb weight that should be about 2700 lbs. My best guess would be an 11 second 1/4 mile et at about 130. This assumes a good tune and I can hook it up (where the weight bias really helps).

Now to go find my Advil.

68fastback
07-01-2010, 06:53 PM
lol -

2700# :wow2:

Wish I lived closer -- this is a sleeper-restomod of the first order ...has to be seen to be fully appreciated because it's true beauty is all in the details.

We need Squirrelstock! :banana: ;-)

Alloy Dave
07-02-2010, 12:55 AM
I love the hood Bruce. Kinda reminds me of that late '60s Pontiac GTO hood.

1536

Carnut
07-02-2010, 12:07 PM
Dan,

Thanks for the compliment. Because of the "sleeper" profile, it will be lost on most. But that is kind of the idea. I think the hood might give it away to us with period correct knowledge. I added a couple of pics of the engine showing how tall it has become. I have dual stage nitrous plate that needs to go in there yet, but I think I wlll wait until I see if how well it hooks up. (If you remember, the power train is designed to handle the NO2)

Dave,

Your right on that GTO hood. I think the new hood will present itself well. You think people will believe it was a special factory option?

I guess I should have rotated those pics. Sorry, I don't know how to fix them now.

When I get to a more finished state, I will do a more professional job of photo documentation.

Carnut
07-12-2010, 01:16 PM
Progress is still being made on the Mustang. I finally mounted the fuel pump and filter. Holley blue pump and cannister filter. I tried out the socketless barbed fitting hose, Summit sells it as Twist Tite, good for 250 psi working pressure and uses AN style fittings. It costs about half of what the stainless braided stuff goes for including the fittings. It is a nice blue hose and is simple to use, just cut it and slide it on.

I ran new hard line from the filter at the back of the car to a new regulator at the front of the car, drivers side in front of the spring tower. The cannister is a vacuum reserve for the power brakes, also a Summit item.

There was no 'good' place to mount the pump and filter so I made a bracket out of a piece of aluminum angle and bolted it to the floor, just in front of the gas tank. It clears everything with room to spare. I still need to wire a relay or two and connect to the carburetor.

The Bone
07-12-2010, 01:31 PM
Looking good Nut Nice idea using a piece of angle to mount the pump and filter. Put a piece of rubber between the angle and the floor pan so you dont hear the pump

Carnut
07-14-2010, 12:29 PM
Thanks Bone, all mounted in rubber, the angle, the pump and the pump bracket. Also the blue hose in the pic is flexible so it should kill those noise.

I also port match the header to the cylinder head port and mounted them for the last time. Really tight fit. The port matching was necessary as the existing header opening was miss matched by as much as a quarter inch in places. I used a high grade pear shape burr in a die grinder on header but still took a couple hours. If I had not taken this step, I would have lost a lot of power, especially on the top end.

I will be working my way back towards the front of the car finishing all those little items over the next few weeks, unless the humidity and high temps make me too miserable.

The Bone
07-14-2010, 05:58 PM
doing the job right always takes time. I like to see you are not rushed to finish. its amazing how company's make stuff and sure it fits they say then you bring the part home to make it fit like they said it would

Carnut
07-14-2010, 07:07 PM
Funny how that seems to work sometimes. :doh2:

Carnut
07-25-2010, 12:00 AM
My new hood arrived last week. It is a really well made piece.

I have been moving my office this last week and have been too tuckered out to do much on the Mustang. Today, I placed the new hood on the car, fits very nice with the exception of the front lip. The underside of the lip is to long and contacts the grill surround so it will take some sculpting as is normal with fiberglass pieces. I will be running the chrome trim on the leading edge of the hood so it needs to be right in order to fit.

I am also need to finish the scoop openings as they are rough cut right now. I am debating putting a small hex pattern mesh in the openings or just leaving them. They used the hex pattern in the grill of the 65; however, the 66 uses horzontal bars. I might try a horizontal bar in the openings, maybe out of a doner 66 grille or some other doner grille insert. I have some time to think about it.

The good news and the reason I had to change hoods was my intake combination made the carburetor too high. With this new hood I have roughly 3/4 inch clearance.

I will also smooth and finish the inside of the hood for a completely finished look.

68fastback
07-25-2010, 01:24 AM
Can't wait to see it all together, Nuts! :banana:

Joe G
07-25-2010, 03:51 AM
My new hood arrived last week. It is a really well made piece.

I have been moving my office this last week and have been too tuckered out to do much on the Mustang. Today, I placed the new hood on the car, fits very nice with the exception of the front lip. The underside of the lip is to long and contacts the grill surround so it will take some sculpting as is normal with fiberglass pieces. I will be running the chrome trim on the leading edge of the hood so it needs to be right in order to fit.

I am also need to finish the scoop openings as they are rough cut right now. I am debating putting a small hex pattern mesh in the openings or just leaving them. They used the hex pattern in the grill of the 65; however, the 66 uses horzontal bars. I might try a horizontal bar in the openings, maybe out of a doner 66 grille or some other doner grille insert. I have some time to think about it.

The good news and the reason I had to change hoods was my intake combination made the carburetor too high. With this new hood I have roughly 3/4 inch clearance.

I will also smooth and finish the inside of the hood for a completely finished look.

:pics:

Gr8snkbite
07-25-2010, 02:28 PM
Yea....pics.....:doh2:

Carnut
07-25-2010, 11:26 PM
:pics:


Yea....pics.....:doh2:

I posted a pic on the hood earlier, I think. I don't read back either.

I will take some new ones once the hood is mounted as well as some new ones of the completed motor in place.

Until then :waiting2:

Carnut
08-04-2010, 01:57 PM
I am using the stock motor mounts on the Mustang but I was concerned that the torque would break the mount eventually. So I decide to make a torque limiting rod out of an old piece of tubing, a couple bolts and some new Heim joints. I ground the bolt heads to fit into the tube, tig welded them and cleaned it up in the lath, then polished it. It will bolt to the top of the drivers side cylinder head on one end and the frame on the other end. Attached are a couple cell phone pics I took of it.

Carnut
08-04-2010, 02:07 PM
I have an electronic transmission controller on the Mustang but the supplier leaves it up to the customer to figure out the throttle position sensor. Their solution was an L bracket from the hardware store and a linkage made from a bathtub stopper chain and a spring. I just couldn't put this Rube Goldberg piece on MY car so I spent a lot of time trying to find something more suitable.

I found what I was looking for at Innovate Motorsports. It is a really neat bolt on piece that actually attaches to the primary shaft of the Holley carbureator. It is a three wire hook up, exactly what I needed.

The Bone
08-04-2010, 02:08 PM
Those look nice but you may not like them cause they will not allow the motor to move at all. If you are afraid of braking a motor mount why not go with a poly mount. You could go with a limiting strap but the motor needs to move a little IMO.

Carnut
08-04-2010, 02:22 PM
Those look nice but you may not like them cause they will not allow the motor to move at all. If you are afraid of braking a motor mount why not go with a poly mount. You could go with a limiting strap but the motor needs to move a little IMO.

Good points.

There is a little play in each Heim. I am hoping that will keep the vibration down. I also think that this rod only limits rotational movement and that the motor can move in any other direction except to opposed the torque of the motor. I have solid mounts on a couple of other cars and they perform fine; they limit travel in all directions.

I have not had a lot of luck with the poly mounts and could not find what I wanted at the time. Polymounts still allow movement and my install is extremely tight on clearance and felt I really wanted to limit this to a very small amount of movement. Plus, in case you forgot, I'm cheap. If I don't like the rod after I try it out, I can change them later without too much effort.:spend:

I will let you know how it works out.

68fastback
08-04-2010, 05:33 PM
Bruce, since the motor mount has flex and and that link doesn't, you're effectively shifting torque management to the head and head bolts/gasket. I'm wondering if that might not put more stress in a bad spot?

Some puckups have similar links but they're more used as dampers (a small hydraulic cylinder instead of a solid rod). Dunno if that would work, but I'm tending to agree with Art -- engine needs to be able to torque a bit ... a strap might better serve that purpose?

Carnut
08-04-2010, 07:55 PM
Bruce, since the motor mount has flex and and that link doesn't, you're effectively shifting torque management to the head and head bolts/gasket. I'm wondering if that might not put more stress in a bad spot?

Some puckups have similar links but they're more used as dampers (a small hydraulic cylinder instead of a solid rod). Dunno if that would work, but I'm tending to agree with Art -- engine needs to be able to torque a bit ... a strap might better serve that purpose?

I understand what your are saying, but the force exerted surely should be less than the shear strength of the bolts. Only a portion of the force from the engine torque will actually be applied to the rod, you still have resistance from three rubber mounts (driver side is in tension and the passenger side is in compression, while the transmission mount is in compression on one side and tension on the other). With just the single rod, the engine still moves, only it goes down on the passenger side and up slightly on the drivers side, the mounting point of the rod is in a different point of the rotational circle. It is just the amount of movement is limited considerably.

I've seen a number of these used locally at the dragstrip and seem to work. I also got the thumbs up from a couple of drag car fabricators. Remember that the engine on Elliot Sadlers Ford last weekend was held by only four 3/8 inch bolts (at least that's what they claim) and it took that big hit to the wall to break them.

We won't be doing any superhard launches with slicks on this car, so the force will be applied progressively. I could be wrong, but this would be the first time :giggle:

68fastback
08-05-2010, 01:36 AM
I was thinking a slightly-slack strap (depending on the clearance you're trying to protect) would permit the motor mounts to absorb a good portion of the torque first if the strap is used mostly as a back-up (so to speak). I was thinking the motor mounts would not really be absorbing much torque at all if 'suberceded' by a hard connection to the head ...since that would bear most all the torque immediately. I agree the head bolts won't break ...just lots of NVH (vs a strap) and more stress on the engine valley (vs a slack strap) which is not very strong to begin with on stock SBF castings. But no doubt the hard-link will work.

Carnut
08-05-2010, 02:46 AM
I was thinking a slightly-slack strap (depending on the clearance you're trying to protect) would permit the motor mounts to absorb a good portion of the torque first if the strap is used mostly as a back-up (so to speak). I was thinking the motor mounts would not really be absorbing much torque at all if 'suberceded' by a hard connection to the head ...since that would bear most all the torque immediately. I agree the head bolts won't break ...just lots of NVH (vs a strap) and more stress on the engine valley (vs a slack strap) which is not very strong to begin with on stock SBF castings. But no doubt the hard-link will work.

I really appreciate the comments Dan and Art. Summer is really getting to wear on the old squirrel and I suspect I will continue to piddle on this project until September or so. I need it to cool down and the humidity to drop so my garage evap cooler starts working again. I really don't have a lot left to do, just finish hooking up hoses and the transmission controller. I solved the only real thinking problem with the TPS, I ordered (Post 85)

Oops, still got to change the ring and pinion on the 9 inch. The old one (which has only a few hundred miles on it) just won't quit whining, even after being set up by experts twice. For the price of new gears, I am just going to change them as there must be some sort of inherent problem with them.

The Bone
08-05-2010, 01:55 PM
sounds like you are almost there it sure takes a long time to do a project of this size when you want everything perfect.
Is there any other way I don't think so.

Carnut
08-05-2010, 08:30 PM
sounds like you are almost there it sure takes a long time to do a project of this size when you want everything perfect.
Is there any other way I don't think so.

I hope that I can post some finished pictures soon, it seems like it takes forever though.

Carnut
08-07-2010, 06:27 PM
Bruce, since the motor mount has flex and and that link doesn't, you're effectively shifting torque management to the head and head bolts/gasket. I'm wondering if that might not put more stress in a bad spot?

Some puckups have similar links but they're more used as dampers (a small hydraulic cylinder instead of a solid rod). Dunno if that would work, but I'm tending to agree with Art -- engine needs to be able to torque a bit ... a strap might better serve that purpose?

I decided to paint the rod with some Flex additive. :biggrin:

Carnut
10-06-2010, 04:53 PM
Mustang Update

Here it is the beginning of October and a little more progress has been made on the car.

Electrical Changes

These old cars did not have a lot power usage compared the new ones. I have added a number of items to the car including an electric fuel pump. dual electric fans, new horns and a computer for the transmission control. I also added controls for the new computer such as a new TPS (carbureted car) and an ignition cut off if there is no oil pressure. As a safety, I also wired in an inertia shut off switch so that my electric fuel pump will shut off in the event of a collision. I have relocated the battery to the rear of the car.

I hate many of the so called wiring jobs some people do so I set out to do a better than professional job so I compiled a number of tips to make it easier.

Using the orginal wiring diagram, I made a seperate wiring diagram for each change or addition I made to the system. This way you have a plan, when running new wires in bundles to various parts of the car. The bundles then can be run into a common point entering the car. In order to keep track of the wires in the bundle, use a different color wire for each circuit. I like to use red for battery power, yellow for accessory or ignition power, black for ground, orange for relay controls, green, blue or white for other circuits. Trying to stick with a common color code makes it easier when terminating your wires. You can also use Avery type self adhesive address labels and a Sharpie to tag the wires if needed.

Wires should be in some sort loom or sheathing to protect them, to keep them in neat bundles and to improve the appearance of your overall project. I prefer cloth expanding sheathing, it kind of works like a Chinese finger puzzle and use the split plastic loom when I have to. Both of these products are available at electronic stores such as Fry's. They make a huge difference on the appearance of your work and more importantly, protect those wires from chafing and cutting. The tiny wire tires are usefull too.

Solder as many connections as you can, crimp on connectors come loose with time. Seal connections using heat shrink tubing, slide on the tube and shrink with a heat gun. For connections I expect can get moisture in them, I use a little silicon grease (silicone is dielectric) on the connection before I put shrink tubing on it to prevent corrosion. I will also cover the connector with an additional length of tubing twice as long as the first one so it seals the ends of the first one.

If you must use a crimp on connector, take extra time use the right size connector and expose the right length of wire to push into the end. When finished, there should be no extra copper wire exposed at either end of the connector. Twist the wire tightly before inserting in the connector barrel. On really small wires, solder the end of the wire before inserting into the barrel so the crimp has something to hang onto. Wires 20 gage and smaller will not stay in crimped connector if not tip soldered at a minimum, its still better to solder it, even if you cut off the insulating cover. Add heat shink tubing on all connectors, insulated or not.

For soldering, I prefer a pencil torch (butane). Heat the wire and push the solder to it. Use solder made for electrical work. Plumbing solders use an acid core are not suitable. Protect your work area from flame and hot solder for obvious reasons.

Take your time and test your circuits as you complete them. I will use a small 2 amp charger for power and a lighted probe. When the job is all buttoned up, I will go through each systems with the small charger for battery power so I don't smoke any wires (in the unlikely event I have a short circuit).

Use fuses or circuit breakers on all new circuits and don't add any significant load to existing circuits. Any more than a few amps is significant.

Don't forget ground wires where needed. A bad ground will keep your system from working or working properly. When connecting to the body, make sure your metal is actually grounded to the battery via the body sheet metal by checking it with an ohm meter or continuity tester.

Keep your new wiring diagrams in case you need to make future modifications or trouble shoot electrical problems.

These are some of the basics, techniques come with experience so just take your time, check your work as you go.

68fastback
10-06-2010, 05:55 PM
The beast progresses!!! :banana: :smile:

Nice write-up Carnut!! You are clearly someone who does things right ...excellent recommendations.

One question: why green for a live circuit and black for ground as opposed to vice-versa? Are automotive 'standards' different than most which typically use green for ground and black for live? (I guess the red/black battery cables give that away?)

The only thing I would add is that soldered connections should have a solid mechanical connection before soldering ...solder preferably serving as the mechanical bond and not part of the actual electrical path itself whenever possible. I don't doubt for a moment you do that in some fashipn, just thought it was worth mentioning since I've seen noobs just lay stranded wires next to each other and solder them 'together' that way. I like to actually spread the strands a bit and insert both stripped ends into (overlapped with) one another for a 100% overlap and maximum physical contact, then twist that overlap as best as possible, then solder, etc. There are other ways of getting a good physical connection first, but that's the neatest, imo, and works great with shrink wrap since there's no bulge because the twisted wires are no larger in diameter than the adjacent insulation. Ok, it's a bit compulsive to do things that way, but I suspect yu know all about how that works. ;-)

I hadn't thought of the dielectric silicone grease (telco's use it all the time) and the double-overlapped shrink-wrap -- makes lots of sense esp where exposed to any moisture. Thanks for the tip!!

Birdman
10-06-2010, 11:09 PM
Very nice write-up Nut, thanks for taking the time to do it for everyone here to benifit from...:wtg: Can't wait to see some pics !

Gr8snkbite
10-07-2010, 02:08 AM
rock on nutboy....waiting for some serious detailed pics for sure....

Carnut
10-07-2010, 01:46 PM
I made a change to the transmission controller

Transmission Control

As noted in previous posts, I am using a later model transmission with this project, mostly so it will hold the horsepower and adds overdrive and lock up torque converter. I had a Baumann Engineering TCS controller to make it all work as the transmission (4R70W) cannot work without a computer. The TCS had been around for a number of years and for the most part, had very good reviews. Its architecture however was based on decade old technology and had some minor glitches.

Going to the Baumann website for information, I noticed that the old TCS was replaced in the last few months with a new one. It is called Optishift and built on current technology, has a much faster processor, is smaller, has display readouts on the controller (vs. having to get your laptap), can be removed to reprogram on your desktop and all around is a big improvement. So, I contacted them and asked about it. To my surprise, they offered me a smoking trade in deal for my old controller. They also will also swap out my transmission wiring harness.

Needless to say, I jumped on it. I removed the current harness from the car, put it in a box (which I have plenty of) and shipped it off. I should have the new unit in a few weeks.

If your are interested, here is the link http://www.becontrols.com/

The Bone
10-07-2010, 02:59 PM
Wow Carnut you have been busy. I like the write up on the wiring technique that you used very complete for sure.
How much longer till you have it complete?

Carnut
10-07-2010, 04:21 PM
The beast progresses!!! :banana: :smile:


One question: why green for a live circuit and black for ground as opposed to vice-versa? Are automotive 'standards' different than most which typically use green for ground and black for live? (I guess the red/black battery cables give that away?)

The only thing I would add is that soldered connections should have a solid mechanical connection before soldering ...

I hadn't thought of the dielectric silicone grease (telco's use it all the time) and the double-overlapped shrink-wrap -- makes lots of sense esp where exposed to any moisture. Thanks for the tip!!

In automotive usage, Red is usually Batt + and Black is usually Batt - , hence the red and black. Of course, you can use any color you want, it just makes it tougher to work with later.

I agree on the mechanical connection for wires, I usually overlap the bare wire and working from the middle back, twist the wires all together in a linear bond

Carnut
10-07-2010, 04:23 PM
It should be complete by the end of the year, my Christmas present to myself.

Carnut
10-13-2010, 11:46 PM
More interesting stuff when you build an older car

REAR END HOWL

The differential in the 66 Mustang howled on coast prior to me pulling it down for this years restomod completion. Orignally I bought a Currie custom 9 inch housing, 31 spline axles and rear disc brakes. A buddy got me a deal on the 3rd member. It howled on coast from the get go and I pulled and had them reset the gears. I reinstalled it and it wasn't any better. I just let it go until now and pullled it out again.

Usually, howling is because the backlash or pinion depth isn't set up right. In my case, it became one of those "problems" that I have had so many of on this restomod project.

Upon inspection, the ring gear wear pattern looked odd. The wear was on the toe, then the middle and then the heel. The clearance varied from .008 to .012. The runout on the gear was over .008. Okay, so the ring gear needs to be repositioned to minimize runout, right? That is what most people would think but in checking the carrier, there was nearly that much runout in a different clock position. The carrier was actually bent.

Closer examination revealed that someone blew up the ring and pinion, probably on slicks. Instead of a good rebuild, they stuck a new ring and pinion on it and sold it to the first sucker that came along. The lesson here is, if you buy a used 3rd member, you better put a dial indicator on it and check for runout on the carrier as well as the gear. Run out really shouldn't be any more than a few thousandths. Also, wipe the gears clean and look at all of the ring gear for even wear. There is nothing wrong with buying used stuff, you just don't want to get screwed on it.

So, I ordered a new ring and pinion gear and a Currie Plus Nine limited slip carrier. The Plus 9 designation is their own product made of higher strength nodular iron, beefed up in areas where they are prone to break. Currie caters to the off road and rock crawler crowd and have developed a very good reputation for quality.

Alloy Dave
10-14-2010, 01:31 AM
Wow, you're right...that's not something you'd normally check. So I assume it's quiet now?

























I know, you don't have the parts yet...I was just seeing how upset you'd get reading that. :haha:

68fastback
10-14-2010, 02:24 AM
Great insight on the carrier run-out, 'Nuts ...hope the new carrier and gears does the trick! Maybe post a pic when you get her in?


In automotive usage, Red is usually Batt + and Black is usually Batt - , hence the red and black. Of course, you can use any color you want, it just makes it tougher to work with later.

I agree on the mechanical connection for wires, I usually overlap the bare wire and working from the middle back, twist the wires all together in a linear bond

...makes sense! :tiphat2:


It should be complete by the end of the year, my Christmas present to myself.

awesome! ...making me smile here!! :biggrin:

Carnut
10-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Wow, you're right...that's not something you'd normally check. So I assume it's quiet now?

























I know, you don't have the parts yet...I was just seeing how upset you'd get reading that. :haha:

Why would I get upset?


Dufus :doh2:

Carnut
11-29-2010, 07:56 PM
It's been well over a month since I last posted the progress on the car, my goal was to have it completed by the Christmas.

The bad news is, more unexpected issues have cropped up. The good news is, they were all solvable but I have been putting 12 hour days on the weekends to keep progress moving along.

My new transmission controller showed up about three weeks ago. I completed soldering all the connector wires to each of the systems. Tested out fine and no issues other than the fact it took over half a day putting on the connectors to the transmission. The clearance left in the stock Mustang tunnel when filled with an 4R70 transmission is minimal to say the least. I could not get my hand on any of the 3 connectors on the transmission, finger tips on one only. After using a pull string to get the harness up and over the transmission, I had to use two screwdrivers like a set of chop sticks while looking up and through little open areas to see. I could balance and turn the connector by using the tunnel or case as a third finger and rotate and push the connectors on. The hardest one was the gear selector sensor the goes on the side behind the shift lever. That one was a 3 hour job, the others much easier.

The rest was MUCH easier, following the wiring diagrams, solder and heat shrink everything. I use Avery address labels and write (with a thin sharpy) what the wire circuit is. That keeps them straight when soldering a bunch of wires together. Of course, I tested each circuit to make sure I had the right wire before labeling it. No mistakes, easy but tedious work when you are working a with couple dozen wires.

Once I got the computer hooked up, it told me that I did not have travel in the transmission gear selector lever. It was limited by the shifter travel. I needed to change the hole location for the cable. Most people have no idea where to start so the following method should work if you ever need to modify the clock positions. First, measure the travel of shift lever with you shifter installed. Then measure the travel needed to go through all the gears. Both measurements are taken from the pivot point of the rod or cable end that moves the transmission. If the measurements are the same, you should be good. If not, draw a full size diagram of the the shift lever travel. Draw a vertical line and using a compass with the center point of the radius on the line and draw an arc that intersects the pivot point (of the rod or cable). The arc should represented to scale, the travel of the lever. Then draw a horizontal arc segment line (perpendicular to the centerline) matching the length of the lever travel you have and what you need. Then draw a line intersecting the end of the arc segment (what you need) and the centerpoint of the arc. By projecting the intersection points of the arc and the segment lines with a vertical line and you should be able to determine your new hole center. It will be where the projected vertical line intersects the line you drew from the arc (what you need) and the center point (line represents the centerline of your lever). I hope to heck I explained that right.

If your lever at the transmission is too short to drill and new hole, then you can modify the lever at the shifter using a similar technique.

When you get ready to drill the lever, you are likely going to be in for a rude awaking. The lever is probably hardened steel. Try filing the metal, if can't file a little groove in it, it is hardened steel and you won't be able to drill it out with common high speed steel bits (or coated bits). In either event, you should used a mill or a drill press so you can push hard at slow speed, use coolant at the drill site. My lever was hardened, and a carbide bit would have been prefered but all I could find was a cobalt bit. Cobalt is supposed to be tougher than carbide but I don't believe it. I mounted the lever in my mill and laid into it hard with a lot of pressure, nothing. Then I remembered heat will take some of the temper out of hardened steel. So I heated the lever with a torch, as hot as I could get it with a plumbers torch and immediately put in the mill. Using a lot of pressure it finally broke through the surface hardening and I had my hole. I quenched in oil the second the hole was drilled in an attempt to reharden it. Must have worked because the file won't touch it.

That problem solved, I decide to put five gallons of gas in my previously good gas tank. I filled it up but after a few minutes I started to smell gas. I looked under the tank and it looked my neighbors lawn sprinkler. Crap. I thew open all the garage doors and turned on the evap cooler to blow the fumes out of the garage. The cooler is outside so I knew the fumes were not going to ignite by a motor spark. I let the fumes most of the vapor out and I went in and finished draining the tank in a container instead of my garage floor. I was afraid to turn anything electrical on or off so I steered clear until the fumes had disapated to a safe level. I had to say I was a little nervous but I wasn't going to endanger myself anymore than I had to. I have insurance. Explosions are caused by the fumes near the floor, if you get a spill, ventilate and wipe up when safe. Don't be turning **** on or off, it could cause sparks and go boom. And no smoking until later.

It turns out, the previous owner had put some stuff in the tank to seal it and the stuff trapped moisture between it and the tank, allowing it to rust. There were at least a dozen pinholes in it. So in way I was lucky the tank leaked. Had it not, I would have gotten that stuff in my fuel lines and carbureator. I ordered a new stainless steel unit and got it in Friday. Looks sweet and does not leak.

Also had a fuel pressure issue with my brand new Holley pump and regulator. Fuel pressure was eractic, acted like it was sucking air on the inlet side. After some dinking with it, it turns out the new regulator was sticking. I ran the pressure up and down a few times with the adjustment screw and finally set it at 6.5 psi. It seems to work fine now.

I don't recall in recent times how many junk parts are out there. Fuel shut off switch, carbureator sight glass, electrical circuit breakers all in the last week. Nothing wrong with the install, just bad parts. The relay just came apart because the factory did not crimp the case to the body, sight glass shattered when tightening loosely by finger, switches wire to the wrong position. I have a small box of new junk from this rebuild that is going back to Summit in a few weeks. I really irritates me, cheap China (and elsewhere) parts.

It started up cleanly, and ran well. Unfortunately, after a couple heat cycles, I developed some coolant drips at the head studs. Believe it or not, this is not all that uncommon. I put a couple tubes of Alumaseal powder in the radiator and after several more heat cycles the coolant drips have stopped. But now I have a few seal drips (oil). They are new seals, they just sat in the motor for several years. I plan to run it a while, they often times will stop on their own. They just need to get warm and pliable so they can seat themselves. I really hope so, I really don't want to drop that monster tranny again.

I took it around the block yesterday, sounds mean, everything seems to be working as it should. I have yet to fit the hood, fine tune the engine and transmission controller.

I am really bushed, long hours for an old squirrel. I'm going to take a nap when I get home today. After my liquid Advil.

Gr8snkbite
11-29-2010, 10:46 PM
great update nutty.....

Black Vert SS
11-29-2010, 11:23 PM
:needpics:


Otherwise great info!

68fastback
11-30-2010, 05:09 AM
Awesome, nuts!! ...great to hear it's officially alive !!! :banana: :chirp:

The Bone
11-30-2010, 03:12 PM
Good story Nut.
Sometimes you have to think outside the box.
How about a video Car show season is just around the corner.
Do a calendar like Joker I am sure you're car is worthy of one

Carnut
11-30-2010, 04:38 PM
:needpics:


Otherwise great info!

Thanks, pics when I can get some time.


great update nutty.....

Thanks.


Awesome, nuts!! ...great to hear it's officially alive !!! :banana: :chirp:

Yep, still alive. Kind of like CS, money and transplants will add years to an old body.


Good story Nut.
Sometimes you have to think outside the box.
How about a video Car show season is just around the corner.
Do a calendar like Joker I am sure you're car is worthy of one

Thinking outside the box can indeed be a challenge, but there is usually a way to solve most issues. I lack the time and knowledge to do a video, maybe I can get my kid to do it.

The Bone
12-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Kids know stuff

68fastback
12-01-2010, 07:16 PM
Can't wait to see pics of the final build :drool:

Carnut
12-02-2010, 12:19 PM
More progress.............

Drove the car Tuesday and Wednesday, trying to get some miles on it.

I noticed this terrible squeal as I drove through some curves. A little pressure to the left or to right and it squealed and since the old squirrel doesn't hear as good as he used to, I wasn't sure what it was. Then the light bulb went on, I had only done a rudimentary alignment when the car was on the lift, sure enough with the suspension settled out, I had a sever toe out. That with old hard tires and a tight asphalt surface, it was the tires squealing. What a relief. A half hour with a laser and a couple 1 inch wrenches and the problem went away. I gotta get some new tires.

The engine idles a little high due to the cam and it hasn't developed full compression yet. This is resulting in a harsh engagement and the engine stalling when cold. After looking at the computer program for the transmission, it looks like I need to tighten up on my idle TPS setting and reduce the line pressure a little a closed throttle. It's idling against the converter and shouldn't be. Also shifts a little too soon, obviously the shift points need to be picked up.

I haven't done a full throttle start with it yet, want to make sure the tranny is right. BUT, at half throttle in first it smolders those drag radials something awful.:wow2: No wheel hop and drives straight. He he he. It pulls through the gears at light throttle something fierce. I think this motor is going to work out just fine. It feels lots faster than my Shelby. Probably because its nearly 1200 lbs lighter.

Car runs a little too cool and transmission temps are all good. The new brakes work great under panic.

The new rack and pinion is absolutely great, no bump steer, a lot less steering effort and few turns lock to lock. It was absolutely a good investment. I shove it through the traffic circle a little agressively and I was pretty surprised. It felt so light and nimble.

I still have to finish the new hood and install it. It looks kinda mean without it.

I hope to take a few pictures this weekend and post.

Black Vert SS
12-02-2010, 12:29 PM
:waiting2:

Carnut
12-02-2010, 12:46 PM
:waiting2:

:boink: I'm old, it takes me longer to do stuff.

Vette Killer
12-02-2010, 02:55 PM
Awesome thread to read nut!

A couple of things came to mind when reading...for brake fluid I would recommend using DOT 5 instead of DOT 3; DOT 5 does not eat paint and has better physical performance properties as well.

The other one is on the oil leaks, not sure what you used for engine oil but a lot of people try use synthetic right out of the gate; good idea to use mineral based until the first oil change; it is not as "slippery" as synthetic and will allow seals to get their wear in seat. It is also good for rings as it allows them to go through a faster and move agressive break-in which reduces the likelyhood of any glazing.

Awesome project, can't wait to see the finished pics!

Joe G
12-02-2010, 05:28 PM
:boink: I'm old, it takes me longer to do stuff.

True dat.



But it sounds awesome, Nut. Can't wait to see pics - I bet it's a lot different from the last time I saw it in person.

The Bone
12-04-2010, 12:24 AM
Awesome thread to read nut!

A couple of things came to mind when reading...for brake fluid I would recommend using DOT 5 instead of DOT 3; DOT 5 does not eat paint and has better physical performance properties as well.

The other one is on the oil leaks, not sure what you used for engine oil but a lot of people try use synthetic right out of the gate; good idea to use mineral based until the first oil change; it is not as "slippery" as synthetic and will allow seals to get their wear in seat. It is also good for rings as it allows them to go through a faster and move agressive break-in which reduces the likelyhood of any glazing.

Awesome project, can't wait to see the finished pics!
Excellent advice VK Thats how I have always done it about 500 miles then change it to synthetic

Carnut
12-05-2010, 02:35 PM
3635363436333632Okay so here are some pictures of the car while I still have it on the lift. You can see my new stainless steel fuel tank and the Currie 9 inch rear end with disc brake, one shows the 2.5 inch exhaust with the Flowmaster and the turn outs in front of the rear axle. The other shots show the headers, the new rack and pinion and the Moroso kick out oil pan which has a 7 qt capacity. You can also see the front disc brakes. The picture quality is not that great and its kind of tough taking pictures under the car.

I will be taking more later of the engine compartment and the rest of the car when I get it off the lift later today. The engine really sounds bad a** with the solid roller cam. My day is to get a little more run time on it and start calibrating the transmission with the computer interface. It ought to be interesting since it is all new to me. BTW, it is Baumann Engineering's new "Opti-shift" controller which probably gives me too much freedom to change things. We will see how it goes.

68fastback
12-05-2010, 06:52 PM
SWEET!!! ...yeah, more pics (and maybe some bigger pics? ...I've seen stamps bigger than that :lol:)

Bruce, the only reservation I'd have on the turnouts is that the exhaust (esp on a non-computer engine) will most definately take it's toll in pervasive acid-rot over the long term ...which would be such a shame. I learned that the hard way on vehicles I had for many years ...but sure sounds great exiting under there and is nice not having to go up and over the axle ...but I'd never do that again on a car I really care about.

Carnut
12-05-2010, 10:15 PM
SWEET!!! ...yeah, more pics (and maybe some bigger pics? ...I've seen stamps bigger than that :lol:)

Bruce, the only reservation I'd have on the turnouts is that the exhaust (esp on a non-computer engine) will most definately take it's toll in pervasive acid-rot over the long term ...which would be such a shame. I learned that the hard way on vehicles I had for many years ...but sure sounds great exiting under there and is nice not having to go up and over the axle ...but I'd never do that again on a car I really care about.

I wash it down once in a while with anti-rot, same thing I use in shower. :giggle:

68fastback
12-06-2010, 12:44 AM
lol ...ok then :biggrin:

Carnut
12-06-2010, 11:45 AM
Hot Rodding has always been a process it seems. Change one thing and you have to change something else.

Weight Savings Issues
Who would think that saving weight on a car could be a bad thing? Well, it isn't but it can make you spend more money. Though this project, I have taken a lot of weight off the nose of this car, aluminum heads, aluminum intake, relocated battery to trunk, fiberglass hood, aluminum radiator, aluminum transmission etc. All told there is probably 200 lbs off the front suspension, which is great.

Well maybe not so great. Now the car a little nose high and the camber is off quite a bit. My first reaction is to change the shims on the upper control arms, bringing the caster back into alignment. I could do that but, the spring rate is too high and results in some pretty hard hits running over the bumps in the road. I might be able to mitigate that with a different shock, it needs them anyway. The right way to do it however would be to change the spring rate. The problem with that is getting reproduction springs that have the right rate and height because most everything I have been able to find is cheap China junk and I have my share of bad luck with that stuff.

Soooooo............I am thinking of going to a coil over type shock. I have set a Ruggle scales and can get the real weights for determining the spring rate. I have been looking at these http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/vas_bolton-co.html They are a bolt on with options for ride height etc and Total Control has a good reputation for quality. I can keep my stock suspension otherwise because I don't want to or need to spend on a complete new suspension, I'm a cruiser mostly. They are still pricey at $900 but by the time I buy new springs and quality shocks I would spend at least half of that.

Any wise words for the squirrel, anyone?

The Bone
12-06-2010, 02:08 PM
Grab a track may have some spring package a mustang parts supplier sells them here in ca. Since you know the corner weight you could just go to youre mustang parts guy and see what he has. Springs are not all that expensive. i take it you still have the shock towers in you're car. Changing the springs in you're car will be a dangerous job so be careful I made a tool to do mine in the wife's car.

JTB
12-06-2010, 03:02 PM
This is going to be soooo sweet when completed!

Carnut
12-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Grab a track may have some spring package a mustang parts supplier sells them here in ca. Since you know the corner weight you could just go to youre mustang parts guy and see what he has. Springs are not all that expensive. i take it you still have the shock towers in you're car. Changing the springs in you're car will be a dangerous job so be careful I made a tool to do mine in the wife's car.

I will check them out, and yes I do have the shock towers in place.

My concern with just spring packages is the chance of getting out of spec products is very great in my view, hence my comment about Chinese junk that seems to have flooded the marketplace.

The Vari-Shock set seemed to take advantage a bolt in set up. I am not interested in hacking up the front subframes and spring towers. The bolt-in design allows me to be able to go back to stock if I ever want to.

You are absolutely right about dangers in changing springs. I actually bought a high dollar spring compressor when I rebuilt the front end. It releases the spring pressure gradually. As an added precaution, I keep well clear of the spring until it is decompressed. I would recommend to anyone doing spring work to avoid the cheap Harbor Freight tools and by a good American tool made specifically for the job.

So what is the advantage to coil overs instead of just changing the spring. Frankly, ease of adjustment is the only one I am really aware of. Are there other advantages, all other things being equal. Remember this is a double A arm set up from the 60's.

Joe G
12-06-2010, 03:59 PM
Eaton springs - http://www.eatonsprings.com/

Made in :flag:

Made to OEM specs, but will also do custom rates to match mods (like you need, Nut).

When I was on the various classic mustang forums these were the ones everyone raved about.

Carnut
12-06-2010, 06:07 PM
Eaton springs - http://www.eatonsprings.com/

Made in :flag:

Made to OEM specs, but will also do custom rates to match mods (like you need, Nut).

When I was on the various classic mustang forums these were the ones everyone raved about.

Looks like good American made stuff. The price of the springs and shocks gets is about half of the Vari-Shock coil overs. Knowing my ride height and factory ride height would also be in order. So I guess it comes down to which is best and why. I still don't know that answer on why the coil overs would be any better, other than adjustability and cool looks.

I guess I need to put the car on the Ruggle scales and know what my wheel weights are before I start calling some of these guys. Probably floor them having someone call with specific information, then again, maybe not.

68fastback
12-06-2010, 06:26 PM
...my first reaction was the coil-overs too because the ride height is adjustable ...preferably with adjustable dampers too.

I'm amazed at Joe's 'filing' system ...I think I first posted that EATON Spring link back when TS was still SU! -lol Joegie, you rock!

Joe G
12-06-2010, 07:01 PM
I'm amazed at Joe's 'filing' system ...I think I first posted that EATON Spring link back when TS was still SU! -lol Joegie, you rock!

It's all there... I just can't always find what I'm looking for. :grin:


Oh, and I had that bookmarked before I even joined the old SU. There was a cool site called FoMoCo.com that had a classic car forum - the owner got the big :boxing: by Ford when they got on the trademark enforcement kick and he had to give up the domain name and change.

Carnut
12-06-2010, 09:38 PM
It's all there... I just can't always find what I'm looking for. :grin:


Oh, and I had that bookmarked before I even joined the old SU. There was a cool site called FoMoCo.com that had a classic car forum - the owner got the big :boxing: by Ford when they got on the trademark enforcement kick and he had to give up the domain name and change.

I hope your smiley's name is Henry. :boink:

Oops. Here I go post whoring my own technical thread. Please flush.:toilet:

Vette Killer
12-06-2010, 10:55 PM
Hot Rodding has always been a process it seems. Change one thing and you have to change something else.

Any wise words for the squirrel, anyone?

One thing you may want to consider is doing the math on your existing springs (sounds like you like the rebound properties) and just getting someone to cut the coils for you. I used to do this a lot on older restos to get the correct ride height or when I wanted to lower something etc. You measure the compressed height and the free height and then remove material at that ratio to get your desired ride height....a reputable spring shop can do this for you using the correct process so you do not introduce stress risers into the spring that will cause a failure down the road.

The only benefit I know of for coil overs is that you get the ease of adjustabilitiy for dialing it up for track day and still having the ride you want on the way to and from the track.

68fastback
12-07-2010, 01:03 AM
It's all there... I just can't always find what I'm looking for. :grin:


Oh, and I had that bookmarked before I even joined the old SU. There was a cool site called FoMoCo.com that had a classic car forum - the owner got the big :boxing: by Ford when they got on the trademark enforcement kick and he had to give up the domain name and change.

Amazing he got away with FoMoCo.com that long!

...you probably also know about Green Sales (http://www.greensalescompany.com/)...specializing in obsolete FoMoCo parts. I used to pick up Cougar/Mustang strut bushings for my Quadravan front locator link from them after Ford dropped stock.

Carnut, Greem's might have some front coils for 4- nd 6- cyl '65s which likely used lower rates and might be a good match?

Carnut
12-07-2010, 04:39 PM
I may have to put this decision off for a time. I discovered water bubbling up through my concrete driveway this morning. My service line runs right about where the water is coming up.

This sucks.

Joe G
12-07-2010, 04:45 PM
:yikes:

That sucks.

















(I didn't know there was water in the desert!)


:tiptoe:

Carnut
12-07-2010, 04:59 PM
Friggin house repairs are going to eat up my Mustang fund.










There is water in Arizona just as sure as there are icicles and mini-vans in Minnesota.

Joe G
12-07-2010, 05:00 PM
There is water in Arizona just as sure as there are icicles and mini-vans in Minnesota.

:ohsnap:

Carnut
12-07-2010, 05:02 PM
:tease2:

The Bone
12-07-2010, 11:53 PM
Sorry to hear about the water problem that sucks for sure. look in the bright side it could be in Minnasota where its colder than a well diggers ass.
As for the spring removal tool I use half a spring compressor and got a piece of 1 inch all thread fine thread. Then I put a nut on the bottom and slid the half of the spring compressor on the all thread. Then I slide it down the shock tower and hook it on the spring. I have a 1/2 steal plate with a 1 inch hole in it and slide it over the all thread and set it on the shock tower then put a nut on the top and crank away. I have to put a vice grip on the spring so the hooks on the compressor dont ride up on the spring. They have a tendency of sliding on the spring it took me all day to design this tool.

68fastback
12-08-2010, 03:50 AM
Awesome, Art ...post a pic when youy get a chance :banana:

The Bone
12-08-2010, 07:26 AM
Will do tomorrow

Carnut
12-08-2010, 04:16 PM
Sorry to hear about the water problem that sucks for sure. look in the bright side it could be in Minnasota where its colder than a well diggers ass.
As for the spring removal tool I use half a spring compressor and got a piece of 1 inch all thread fine thread. Then I put a nut on the bottom and slid the half of the spring compressor on the all thread. Then I slide it down the shock tower and hook it on the spring. I have a 1/2 steal plate with a 1 inch hole in it and slide it over the all thread and set it on the shock tower then put a nut on the top and crank away. I have to put a vice grip on the spring so the hooks on the compressor dont ride up on the spring. They have a tendency of sliding on the spring it took me all day to design this tool.

I bought a SIR internal spring compressor back in the days when I was making money. This one works easily with no chance of the spring slipping out. Here is a link
http://www.etoolcart.com/internalspringcompressorm0070-gt.aspx

The Bone
12-08-2010, 04:28 PM
Here is the video of the tool I made. Its not very good but i think you will see what I did.
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/aonebadbone/?action=view&current=DSCN0074.mp4
Wow Carnut that tool is 450 bucks looks very safe but that is a lot of money for basically a one time use tool. These springs are very tough to get out I think I spent about 20 bucks for mine you're tool looks way better thats for sure. When I did mine I thought this other tool would work but I was wrong so I figured that this is the best I could do.

68fastback
12-08-2010, 06:11 PM
Here is the video of the tool I made. Its not very good but i think you will see what I did.
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/aonebadbone/?action=view&current=DSCN0074.mp4
Wow Carnut that tool is 450 bucks looks very safe but that is a lot of money for basically a one time use tool. These springs are very tough to get out I think I spent about 20 bucks for mine you're tool looks way better thats for sure. When I did mine I thought this other tool would work but I was wrong so I figured that this is the best I could do.

Now I see what you mean -- very cool, Art! ...thanks...

Carnut
12-08-2010, 08:11 PM
Here is the video of the tool I made. Its not very good but i think you will see what I did.
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x269/aonebadbone/?action=view&current=DSCN0074.mp4
Wow Carnut that tool is 450 bucks looks very safe but that is a lot of money for basically a one time use tool. These springs are very tough to get out I think I spent about 20 bucks for mine you're tool looks way better thats for sure. When I did mine I thought this other tool would work but I was wrong so I figured that this is the best I could do.

Wow, I built the same tool but I also had trouble keeping it engaged on the spring. Great minds think alike I guess. I got a little concerned about my hand having to be up there and like I said, I bought it several years when times were good. Your tool (and mine I see) just made me nervous and I get real paranoid about some things, loaded springs, loaded bullets, loaded acorns and such. Gas vapors freak me out even more than springs.

In any event, if I wasn't so chicken I think I could have gotten it to work. BTW, I think the price of the SIR tool has gone up over $100 since I bought mine. I have a few Falcons and a Fairlane that use a similar suspension to the Mustang, so I will get several more uses out of it. I still have the Bone Nut spring tool just in case.

Tommy Gun
12-09-2010, 01:07 AM
:sneaking2:

The Bone
12-09-2010, 01:42 PM
I had the same problem until i got out the vice grips. then no worries

Carnut
01-20-2011, 12:10 PM
This thread is getting a little dusty. The project has hit a wall, partly because I have had little time to work on it and partly because I have mechanical issues.

The car has a lean miss at steady light cruise and completely runs out of fuel at high rpm wot. I have been through the fuel system cold, have plenty of flow, have increased the jet sizes significantly gone through the carb and it still lean. The plugs show lean too to back it up. It's very frustrating and it looks like I am going to have to go through some advanced trouble shooting to try and identify the problem. I've checked the fuel filter, the timing, etc. I kind of think it may be the fuel regulator or the pump failing after warm-up. It might also be the air bleed sizes too big, its a Holley HP series 750 double pumper.

I am going to run through all the basics one more time and if I can't find it, wholesale parts replacement will be in order. Arrrrgh.

The Bone
01-20-2011, 05:04 PM
Have you gone with bigger fuel jets? A 750 should be fine for you're motor. Are you running the stock F/P If so you may want to go electric with a pressure regulator I run no more than 8# and I have a 650 on mine but you have a bigger cam than me. This is the only problem with carb cars you have to figure all this out yourself. Timeing will not have much to do with lean condition If the timing isnt right on Fords they won't run right. Do you have a pressure gauge on the fuel line?

68fastback
01-20-2011, 05:05 PM
What a PITA! I guess you could run a hose from carb feed back to the tank filler and let the pump cycle fuel through a small aperture (so it has to work hard) and see if the pressure sags over time. I wonder if a sticking float could somehow be the culprit tho the Holley center-pivots are pretty bullet-proof. Are the rear-front bowl/float assemblies interchangeable/swappable on the 750? ...to see if any change in the symptoms? ...might help implicate/eliminate the carb?

Carnut
01-20-2011, 06:43 PM
Have you gone with bigger fuel jets? A 750 should be fine for you're motor. Are you running the stock F/P If so you may want to go electric with a pressure regulator I run no more than 8# and I have a 650 on mine but you have a bigger cam than me. This is the only problem with carb cars you have to figure all this out yourself. Timeing will not have much to do with lean condition If the timing isnt right on Fords they won't run right. Do you have a pressure gauge on the fuel line?


What a PITA! I guess you could run a hose from carb feed back to the tank filler and let the pump cycle fuel through a small aperture (so it has to work hard) and see if the pressure sags over time. I wonder if a sticking float could somehow be the culprit tho the Holley center-pivots are pretty bullet-proof. Are the rear-front bowl/float assemblies interchangeable/swappable on the 750? ...to see if any change in the symptoms? ...might help implicate/eliminate the carb?

I'm running a Holley blue pump with the 803 regulator. Everything seems good cold in the driveway. I went up 4 jet sizes and it made no difference, should have had some effect. I also checked the fuel filter. Pump put out 130 gpm cold, which is plenty of fuel. Plugs are bright white, indicating a lean condition. Fuel inlets are high capacity.

68fastback
01-21-2011, 12:12 AM
I'm running a Holley blue pump with the 803 regulator. Everything seems good cold in the driveway. I went up 4 jet sizes and it made no difference, should have had some effect. I also checked the fuel filter. Pump put out 130 gpm cold, which is plenty of fuel. Plugs are bright white, indicating a lean condition. Fuel inlets are high capacity.

I see the Holley Blue is rated at 110 gph @ 14 psi max, so 130 cold sounds good.

Carnut
01-21-2011, 12:59 PM
It's really a puzzler. The tank is vented at the cap, condition occurs with tank full or not full, the cold test should prove out that the system capacity is adequate (Fuel line size, etc). Other than the carburetor, the only other suspects can be the fuel pump itself or the regulator when they get hot. It can't be sucking air with a full tank so that is a non-issue. I hate to start replacing parts at this point without finding the cause.

The carburetor came with 73's front and rear. I jumped them up to 77 in the primary and 81 in the secondary, way more than should be needed to correct the lean cruise. I've added slosh tubes to the secondary jets.

I don't think it can be ignition, as the plugs show lean.

I think the correct course of action is to replace the regulator first, then if the condition does not correct itself, the fuel pump. After that, back through the carburetor starting with the air bleeds as the are replaceable.

The Bone
01-21-2011, 01:21 PM
Go back to the origional jets that came with the carb since that is not the problem. I do think the fuel pump may be the cause. Are you running any rubber fuel lines from the tank to the pump. Maybe they are collapsing when hot. I know you have been through every part of this car but even new stuff is defective sometimes. Do you havew the stock sending unit in the tank? Maybe the sock is plugged on the sending unit.

68fastback
01-21-2011, 05:48 PM
Bruce, where is the pump physically located. I think this type pump typically needs to have it's inlet/outlet mounted below the lowest point of the tank and as close to the tank as possible. Did the instructions mention anything specific about pump/regulator mounting location? Just trying to think of aything that could cause symptoms.

Carnut
01-21-2011, 06:30 PM
Go back to the origional jets that came with the carb since that is not the problem. I do think the fuel pump may be the cause. Are you running any rubber fuel lines from the tank to the pump. Maybe they are collapsing when hot. I know you have been through every part of this car but even new stuff is defective sometimes. Do you havew the stock sending unit in the tank? Maybe the sock is plugged on the sending unit.

I agree on the jets, going back to the orginals. I am using and thought about the rubber hose collapsing. I am going to add a fuel pressure guage just before the regulator that should tell me if I have a problem at the hose, the pump or in between. I have a new sending unit with a new sock. I also bought a new fuel pressure regulator to replace the one on the car now. I have received a number of new parts on this built that were defective, not going to discount anything just because it was new when I installed it.


Bruce, where is the pump physically located. I think this type pump typically needs to have it's inlet/outlet mounted below the lowest point of the tank and as close to the tank as possible. Did the instructions mention anything specific about pump/regulator mounting location? Just trying to think of aything that could cause symptoms.

You are right about the pump placement, the inlet is below the bottom of the tank so it is okay. The regulator is mounted close to the carburetor as it is supposed to be.

With the "white" plug reading, I am going to chase the fuel supply issue to its conclusion.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Gr8snkbite
01-21-2011, 09:33 PM
I agree on the jets, going back to the orginals. I am using and thought about the rubber hose collapsing. I am going to add a fuel pressure guage just before the regulator that should tell me if I have a problem at the hose, the pump or in between. I have a new sending unit with a new sock. I also bought a new fuel pressure regulator to replace the one on the car now. I have received a number of new parts on this built that were defective, not going to discount anything just because it was new when I installed it.



You are right about the pump placement, the inlet is below the bottom of the tank so it is okay. The regulator is mounted close to the carburetor as it is supposed to be.

With the "white" plug reading, I am going to chase the fuel supply issue to its conclusion.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

if your going to add a guage b4 the reg, add one after as well. then you'll see supplied press in both areas. Reg could be sticking when it gets hot, but doubtful, or just not regulating properly on increased throttle. The hose, i've seen many times collapse if its a non impregnated hose (i.e. with wire or heavy core). In heat, it doesnt take much to restrict flow, since its a small hose anyway. If the pump is suspected, i would suspect it causing problems even right after start up, but could also not be getting enough voltage at higher demands. just some thoughts.

Carnut
01-21-2011, 10:51 PM
if your going to add a guage b4 the reg, add one after as well. then you'll see supplied press in both areas. Reg could be sticking when it gets hot, but doubtful, or just not regulating properly on increased throttle. The hose, i've seen many times collapse if its a non impregnated hose (i.e. with wire or heavy core). In heat, it doesnt take much to restrict flow, since its a small hose anyway. If the pump is suspected, i would suspect it causing problems even right after start up, but could also not be getting enough voltage at higher demands. just some thoughts.

Not sure how to best check the line, its a short piece of the Aeroquip push on hose, seems pretty stiff. I guess I could hardpipe this piece in, at least for testing purposes. Have the guage on the carb side of the regulator though. I guess I'll know a little more tomorrow after I see what is happening on both sides of the regulator.

Gr8snkbite
01-22-2011, 12:45 AM
Not sure how to best check the line, its a short piece of the Aeroquip push on hose, seems pretty stiff. I guess I could hardpipe this piece in, at least for testing purposes. Have the guage on the carb side of the regulator though. I guess I'll know a little more tomorrow after I see what is happening on both sides of the regulator.

Copy didn't know the layout. Aeroquip has good Shiite....good luck

Carnut
01-31-2011, 03:58 PM
It's really a puzzler. The tank is vented at the cap, condition occurs with tank full or not full, the cold test should prove out that the system capacity is adequate (Fuel line size, etc). Other than the carburetor, the only other suspects can be the fuel pump itself or the regulator when they get hot. It can't be sucking air with a full tank so that is a non-issue. I hate to start replacing parts at this point without finding the cause.

The carburetor came with 73's front and rear. I jumped them up to 77 in the primary and 81 in the secondary, way more than should be needed to correct the lean cruise. I've added slosh tubes to the secondary jets.

I don't think it can be ignition, as the plugs show lean.

I think the correct course of action is to replace the regulator first, then if the condition does not correct itself, the fuel pump. After that, back through the carburetor starting with the air bleeds as the are replaceable.

Still have issues. I replaced the regulator, no help. Replaced the filter, no help. Replaced the feed line, no help.

I am going to change the pump itself. I discovered over the weekend that it is demonically possessed. Wide pressure differentials from zero to over 30 psi (pegs the fuel guage and yes I changed it too just to verify what I was seeing) which is pretty amazing out of a pump that should only put out 14 psi. The **** thing also shut off a couple times on me hot. The exorcism will take place once I get a priest over to change the pump.

I have a small box of new crap parts I have taken off because they were sh*t and the pump is going in there too. It's a Holley Blue pump and I haven't had any great successes with them in the past so I will be changing brands. I am looking at the Edelbrock external pump that puts out 120 gph without a need for a regulator. It is made for them by Essex Industries, right here in the USA, at least that is Essex' claim. It is a little pricier than the Holley pump but if that is what it takes to get a good pump, so be it. The Holley is made in China, nuff said.

I will say that on one occasion I had a little more fuel that normal and I stood on it at a 20 mph roll. With drag radials, the car broke loose hard, shifted second and stayed smokey loose until I lifted the pedal. Maybe some Mickey Thompson ET drag radials are in order. (They run sub tens with this tire in the small tire classes)

68fastback
01-31-2011, 05:34 PM
Sounds like a plan, Nut! ...sure hope that's it. Not much else it can be given everything you've tried/tested.

Sounds like this p'up is a real beast!! :chirp:

So you'll be trailering to Orfstock? ...or just flying in? :banana: :biggrin:

Carnut
02-02-2011, 11:34 AM
Still have issues. I replaced the regulator, no help. Replaced the filter, no help. Replaced the feed line, no help.

I am going to change the pump itself. I discovered over the weekend that it is demonically possessed. Wide pressure differentials from zero to over 30 psi (pegs the fuel guage and yes I changed it too just to verify what I was seeing) which is pretty amazing out of a pump that should only put out 14 psi. The **** thing also shut off a couple times on me hot. The exorcism will take place once I get a priest over to change the pump.

I have a small box of new crap parts I have taken off because they were sh*t and the pump is going in there too. It's a Holley Blue pump and I haven't had any great successes with them in the past so I will be changing brands. I am looking at the Edelbrock external pump that puts out 120 gph without a need for a regulator. It is made for them by Essex Industries, right here in the USA, at least that is Essex' claim. It is a little pricier than the Holley pump but if that is what it takes to get a good pump, so be it. The Holley is made in China, nuff said.

I will say that on one occasion I had a little more fuel that normal and I stood on it at a 20 mph roll. With drag radials, the car broke loose hard, shifted second and stayed smokey loose until I lifted the pedal. Maybe some Mickey Thompson ET drag radials are in order. (They run sub tens with this tire in the small tire classes)

I ordered a new pump yesterday, a Holley HP150, it is a gerotor design instead of the rotor and vane style. I did some checking and it has a real low return rate as compared to the blue pump. I discovered that pressure reduces the old pump flow by at least 40 percent. The HP 150 flow is reduced by a small amount at the same pressure giving me 140 gph vs the less the 70 at the same pressure. In my case the old blue was a lot less than that once it got hot.

I went this way because the Edelbrock pump I was looking at also has a flow reduction of over 40 percent at the same pressure. I felt more comfortable with the Holley HP series as they are supposed to be made in the USA. Another benefit of the gerotor design is that they are supposed to be extremely quiet where the old blue was very noisy.

68fastback
02-02-2011, 05:07 PM
Wow! Real nice billet pump ...hadn't seen that one before. Hope that does the trick!

How did Thomas Paine open his American Papers? "...these are the times that try mens souls..."

Carnut
02-02-2011, 05:16 PM
Wow! Real nice billet pump ...hadn't seen that one before. Hope that does the trick!

How did Thomas Paine open his American Papers? "...these are the times that try mens souls..."

I don't know but I smell burnt squirrel brain.

Joe G
02-02-2011, 11:40 PM
I don't know but I smell burnt squirrel brain.

:yuk:

Carnut
02-03-2011, 07:37 AM
New pump should arrive today. :waiting2:

Carnut
02-22-2011, 01:35 PM
I got my new Holley HP 150 fuel pump a few weeks ago. Outwardly, it looks like really nice piece. :spend:I had no installation problems and I had it hooked up and ready to go in 15 minutes. Since I had a full tank of gas and didn't want it draining all over my garage floor, I used a set of small Vise Grips to pinch off the rubber line from the tank, adjusted the wrench so not to pinch it too tightly and ruin the hose. :yes:

Off the lift it came and I fired it up, adjusted the floats and idle mixture. Since this a gerotor design, it was very quiet, unlike the rotor and vane style of the Holley "blue pump". :smile: I felt I found the problem as there were no wild swings of the fuel pressure, nice and steady.:ohyes: Time for a test drive. :biggrin:

I drove it enough to warm it up well and found a stretch of pavement to allow me to really stand on it. I rolled out and punched it and the second it hit 4500 rpm, it fell on its nose again. CRAP !:sad2: I tried it again, same thing. What a disappointment. I drove it home and put it back on the lift.

This was turning into a real head scratcher. Were my line sizes okay? Was I getting enough voltage to the pump? How about a good ground? Maybe the circuit breaker was defective or I had a loose connection. I thought surely I had enough pump. I checked various charts and formulas for line sizing and found I should be okay, including all the bends. I had replaced the regulator. The suction hose was not collapsing.

I decided I needed to go back through the system again only this time I decided to verify the electrical system. It all checked out, adequate voltage to the pump, good grounds on everything, I even checked the resistance of all of the power wiring and each device, circuit breaker, relay, fuel shut switch, each connector and so forth. By the way, may sure you disconnect your power source before checking resistance tests on your power wiring.

So again, everything seemed to check out. I put my thinking cap on and remembered the wild pressure swings on the old pump. If the old pump and regulator were good, what good be causing that. It was like there was air in the system coming from the suction side of the pump. Maybe the vent wasn't working, so since this car uses a vented cap, I hooked it up to a vacuum pump, tested okay. The only thing left was to physically inspect the suction side of the pump.

I had to drain the tank again, I am getting pretty good at this since I have had to do it so many times. I pulled out the tank pickup and put a vacuum pump on it, no air leaks. As I sat there looking at the assembly, I looked at the brand new factory style filter on the end of the pick up, the one that goes in the tank. I was curious about the factory style plastic filter so I cut the mesh off and could barely blow through it, it seemed too restrictive to me. After I had the mesh off, I noticed the hole that allows the fuel to enter the pick up, it was tiny, less than 1/4 inch. While this in itself was no "smoking gun", it seemed wrong to me.

So, I order a 100 micron stainless steel replacement element with a lot more surface area. It arrived and the end was a little bigger than the pick up so I fashioned an adapter using a piece of fuel hose, slipping the filter on the hose and the hose on the pick up. I reinstalled the pick up in the tank and filled it up, no leaks so we were good.

It was time to run some fuel flow tests. First test was directly out of the pump and I only got a little over 100 gph, a little low but this was at 12.3 volts and would run more with the engine running. To prove the friction loss through the lines and regulator at the carburetor, I ran a test of the carburetor connection, it dropped to 90 gph which is a little less friction loss than I expected and 90 gph was certainly enough to support the engine. I figured I was still losing about 20 gph on the suction side of the pump. I decided it was time for another test run; however, I was prepared for another disappointment.

I took it out yesterday, and after a warm up, I punched it hard. The tire smoldered and I stayed in it, up to 6,000 rpm, the auto shifted to second and up to 6,000 rpm again. This was encouraging to say the least. I tried a few more times and each time it ran perfectly, not a whimper. I think the problem is solved, what a major PITA.

I guess it is time to go back and replace the rear main seal and get going on finishing the car.

So, I suspect the pump was sucking so hard, the fuel was cavitating causing the erractic pressures and flows. You can only suck so much liquid through a straw before it wants to turn into bubbles.:doh2:

CH53Driver
02-22-2011, 01:50 PM
Awesome Carnut! I do hope you indeed found the problem and that will hopefully be the end of it! :wtg:

68fastback
02-22-2011, 07:09 PM
Outstanding! I'm so glad you got to the bottom of it (no pun intended ;-)) ...isn't it always like this -- the problem is always in the least accessible location :doh2: (Carnut's first law of autodynamics :biggrin:)

Ok, so ...soon it will be time for some pics!! :banana: ;-)

The Bone
02-22-2011, 11:40 PM
I had thought that you hadn't removed the vice grips from the fuel line untill the end of the story. what a hard problem to figure out.

Carnut
02-23-2011, 01:00 PM
I had thought that you hadn't removed the vice grips from the fuel line untill the end of the story. what a hard problem to figure out.

Wouldn't that be a hoot, LOL.

I am considering changing my system to include a bypass style regulator to help the pump last longer. Currently the system dead heads against the returnless style regulator which is a little harder on the pump. All that would be necessary would be to change the regulator and add a line back to the pump. Mustangs Plus makes a replacement fuel pick up sender unit that they have modified for EFI applications and have both a supply and return line connection.

I could also get more out of the system by modifying the fuel pick up to provide a 1/2 inch pickup, thereby reducing the amount of vacuum necessary to suck the fuel into the pump.

I should be fine now without these changes and I have other things to finish on the car. If hot summer temperatures cause me grief, I have a plan.

The Bone
02-23-2011, 04:02 PM
I am still running the stock pump on my car with the stock pickup in the tank without any problem. I dont have near the HP you have but that did seem odd to hear that the hole in the pickup was so small. I wonder why. If you run a return line than you could go with a stronger pump and set the regulator to 8# and let her rip

68fastback
02-23-2011, 07:15 PM
Wouldn't that be a hoot, LOL.

I am considering changing my system to include a bypass style regulator to help the pump last longer. Currently the system dead heads against the returnless style regulator which is a little harder on the pump. All that would be necessary would be to change the regulator and add a line back to the pump. Mustangs Plus makes a replacement fuel pick up sender unit that they have modified for EFI applications and have both a supply and return line connection.

I could also get more out of the system by modifying the fuel pick up to provide a 1/2 inch pickup, thereby reducing the amount of vacuum necessary to suck the fuel into the pump.

I should be fine now without these changes and I have other things to finish on the car. If hot summer temperatures cause me grief, I have a plan.


Might be better to go back to the tank itself since looping back to the pump can really raise fuel temps in hot climates, I think. ...I tink tank mixing tends to help mitigate that, tho I guess it would work either way. Do you really think the pump life will be materially affected either way? Don't these pumps just stop pumping when at pressure? So looping might relieve some 'stress' but could well cause much more pumping to actually occur ...at least that's what I'm thinking (not at all knowing how that specific regulator works tho). This pump should last for well over 100K miles, I think.

Carnut
02-24-2011, 02:26 AM
Might be better to go back to the tank itself since looping back to the pump can really raise fuel temps in hot climates, I think. ...I tink tank mixing tends to help mitigate that, tho I guess it would work either way. Do you really think the pump life will be materially affected either way? Don't these pumps just stop pumping when at pressure? So looping might relieve some 'stress' but could well cause much more pumping to actually occur ...at least that's what I'm thinking (not at all knowing how that specific regulator works tho). This pump should last for well over 100K miles, I think.

:oops:

I did mean back to the tank, and all of the benefits you mentioned apply. Looping back to pump can be done, it does nothing for the fuel temperature but it does get rid of the physics of "deadhead" systems. Once the fuel flow stops at a non-return "deadhead" system, it takes a little while for the now static fluid in the line to get moving again, so you lose flow. Kind of like a traffic light. The pump keeps running, trying to push the fuel, hence the term "deadhead". Head is term that used to mean the top of the well and dead meaning not moving. Once the pump reaches a preset pressure, it will bypass internally (at 14 psi with my pump)

I am not sure how much pump life would be increased, if any, using a return system. It just seems to me there would be some benefit of the pump not having to work so hard, just a guess though and not based on a real data. I will likely just leave it alone unless I get hot weather problem, in which case, I have an easy solution. :spend:

Carnut
02-24-2011, 02:36 AM
I am still running the stock pump on my car with the stock pickup in the tank without any problem. I dont have near the HP you have but that did seem odd to hear that the hole in the pickup was so small. I wonder why. If you run a return line than you could go with a stronger pump and set the regulator to 8# and let her rip

I think one of the problems is that the new pickup I bought is another Chinese product and the new filter is also. Their crap probably works on the old low test V-8's, so quality control doesn't matter much to the them. One junk part fits all. Unfortunately, the aftermarket is loaded with this stuff and it is next to impossible to find good old USA stuff.

68fastback
02-24-2011, 04:19 AM
:oops:

I did mean back to the tank, and all of the benefits you mentioned apply. Looping back to pump can be done, it does nothing for the fuel temperature but it does get rid of the physics of "deadhead" systems. Once the fuel flow stops at a non-return "deadhead" system, it takes a little while for the now static fluid in the line to get moving again, so you lose flow. Kind of like a traffic light. The pump keeps running, trying to push the fuel, hence the term "deadhead". Head is term that used to mean the top of the well and dead meaning not moving. Once the pump reaches a preset pressure, it will bypass internally (at 14 psi with my pump)

I am not sure how much pump life would be increased, if any, using a return system. It just seems to me there would be some benefit of the pump not having to work so hard, just a guess though and not based on a real data. I will likely just leave it alone unless I get hot weather problem, in which case, I have an easy solution. :spend:

Aeromotive 17242 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/17242/10002/-1?CT=999&sendroicid=b87b5ad1-402e-450a-9647-bc510d253e51&sendroikwd=Aeromotive+17242&utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BING_VENDOR_Aeromotive)? :weg:

Carnut
02-24-2011, 11:35 AM
Aeromotive 17242 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/17242/10002/-1?CT=999&sendroicid=b87b5ad1-402e-450a-9647-bc510d253e51&sendroikwd=Aeromotive+17242&utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BING_VENDOR_Aeromotive)? :weg:

:surprised:

Well, maybe something a little less expensive.

The Bone
02-24-2011, 01:31 PM
:moneyman:

68fastback
02-25-2011, 05:46 AM
:rofl3: ...for sure...

Carnut
02-25-2011, 11:26 AM
I guess I am going to have to put the final completion of the car on hold and only work on those items that cost nothing. My water line repair ($5,000) really destroyed my car budget and my new business is still sucking money at a huge rate. It cost me a fortune to stock our four new distribution centers and finish building our web base. I need to see some ROI before I can buy anymore personal stuff.

There is a lot of little stuff that needs finishing like replacing those old seals, fixing the windows (channels) and a long list of odds and ends. Painting the new hood is definitely out of the question as well as the coil overs I was planning on. Maybe I could post pictures of touch up paint drying? :waiting2:

Tommy Gun
02-25-2011, 11:40 AM
:look:

The Bone
02-25-2011, 01:39 PM
I hope you get back in the :moneyman: soon

Carnut
02-25-2011, 03:40 PM
I hope you get back in the :moneyman: soon

Thanks, I'm sure I will. It's just a matter of time at this point. I am very encouraged. :grin:

Joe G
02-25-2011, 03:44 PM
Thanks, I'm sure I will. It's just a matter of time at this point. I am very encouraged. :grin:

I may be needing a bunch of boxes soon.

You ship to Minnesota? :grin:

68fastback
02-25-2011, 06:42 PM
...it's a work in progress ...pics along the way are always great to see too! :banana:

Carnut
02-25-2011, 08:20 PM
I may be needing a bunch of boxes soon.

You ship to Minnesota? :grin:

Yes, now we do. PM on the way.:moneyman:

Joe G
02-25-2011, 08:55 PM
Yes, now we do. PM on the way.:moneyman:

I expect a good discount. :bigboss:






:grin:

Carnut
02-26-2011, 12:36 AM
Did you see the discount instantly available?:shades:

Joe G
02-26-2011, 12:45 AM
Did you see the discount instantly available?:shades:

If it's available to just anyone, it's not good enough. :bigboss:



:rofl3:



:shades:

Carnut
02-26-2011, 01:19 AM
If it's available to just anyone, it's not good enough. :bigboss:



:rofl3:



:shades:

Now you sound like TG :boink:

Joe G
02-26-2011, 01:29 AM
Now you sound like TG :boink:

:uwelcome:


He IS my best friend. :grin:

Carnut
02-26-2011, 01:31 AM
:uwelcome:


He IS my best friend. :grin:

Well, stop it. :buttkick:

Carnut
04-10-2011, 01:48 PM
I finally had time to fix the oil leaks on the new engine. Both the front and rear seal were leaking badly from what I suspected was the engine sat too long before I installed it. I had been putting it off on the hopes they would get better, but instead seemed to get progressively worse. While this job is a real PITA, having a lift made the job easier as it hard on me laying on the garage floor trying to do it. Even better is the fact, no laying in transmission fluid that always seems to spill on the floor.

FRONT SEAL

Timing cover seal was fairly easy, I got lucky and had enough room between the radiator and the damper to install a puller. I had to use hand tools because it was too tight for air tools. Once I had exposed the seal, I was able to confirm it was coming from the seal and not the oil pan. Interestingly, the seal pushed in one side with slight pressure and came out without any tools. The outer edge of the seal that contacts the timing cover seemed to be leaking because it was too loose in the bore.

Not wanting to have to deal with replacing this seal again, I did not want to use the Felpro rubber seal available (in case there was any misalignment). (standard rubber seals are more prone to leaking with age and misalignment) so after a long search, I found a Viton seal made by SCE Gaskets. The SCE seal also had a metal flange on it to prevent it from going in too far. To insure a good install, I put a thin film of sealant around the outside edge of the seal, lubed the seal with some light grease and installed it. I took care to align it and drove it into the timing cover using a large socket equalling the diameter of the outer edge of the seal. I wiped another thin coat of oil on the sealing surface of the damper, aligned it with the keyway and installed the bolt into the nose of the crankshaft to pulled it on. You must pull it on and never drive it on with a hammer elst you will damage the thrust bearings on the crank. I turned the bolt easily for the first several turns, confirming the keyway was aligned properly. It gradually took a lot of effort to pull it all the way on but eventually seated all the way. I torqued the bolt to 95 ft/lbs. It is a good idea to use a lubricant on the bolt threads to prevent it from galling the threads on the bolt or the crankshaft; I used anti seize. I reinstalled the pulley and the fan, job done. The pulley bolts were torqued to 30 ft/lbs.

REAR MAIN SEAL

The rear main is a lot bigger job, the transmission has to be removed. In my case, it is a big 4R70W (F-150 trans) automatic transmission. I had to remove the exhaust pipes and the long tube headers which was the hardest part of the job due to cramped space in the engine compartment and elsewhere. I pulled the starter after the headers. I pulled the driveshaft and of course it puked transmission fluid all over the floor. I put a rubber plug in the end and disconnected the cooler lines and removed the dipstick housing. More fluid on the ground before I could get plugs on anything. I had all the proper plugs at the ready before I disconnected anything. After cleaning up the mess again, I installed a transmission jack under the transmission. The jack is made for the lift and extends up to 5 feet off the floor.

After installing the jack and securing it with the safety chain and jacked it up enough to allow me to remove the rear mount. I then removed the remaining linkages. Before seperating the transmission from the engine, I removed four bolts hold the torque converter to the flexplate (flywheel) so that the converter stays on the transmission. You do not want to try and remove the transmission with the torque converter on the engine. After removing the converter bolts, I loosened the six transmission to engine bolts and allowed the transmission to move back about a half inch to be sure the torque converter was pulling back with the transmission. All was good and I removed the bolts and pushed the transmission and inch or so back and lowered the transmission out the way. I removed the flexplate and the seal was now exposed. You may need to use an impact wrench on the flexplate to crank bolts. I carefully checked the back of the engine to make sure my leak was not coming from the camplug, the oil gallery plugs or any other source. It was definitely the seal.

To remove the seal (a large on piece seal about 4 inches in diameter) I used a awl to punch a small hole in the flange on each side of the seal. I installed a couple of small screws into the holes, being careful not scratch the seal surface of the crank and pryed out the seal using a small prybar. I notice a couple of small scratches on the crank surface that appeared to have been made when someone used a metal seal installation tool. They were just on the edge of the seal lip so I polished them with some 1500 grit sandpaper to remove any raised surface the could damage the lip of the seal when the crank turns.

Again, not wanting to do this job again, I bought a Fel Pro PTFE seal (teflon). This type of material is supposed to be the best they make to accomodate alignment issues as well as surface imperfections (small scratches) and to not dryout. It was also expensive, $48 and change but worth the extra insurance in my opinion. The part number is Felpro 2941. Interestingly, this seal is to be installed dry, without any lubricant on the sealing lip (you have to lube other types). I cleaned the bore and the crankshaft surface. I installed a thin bead of RTV sealant around the outside edge of the seal and placed it on the crank using the clear plastic installation sleeve that came on the seal. I drove the seal into the bore, using a piece of 4 inch plastic sewer pipe and removed the installation sleeve.

The remaining work was the reverse of the removal. I used thread sealant on the flexplate to crank bolts because the holes appear to be open to oil pan area which could seep oil later. Jack the transmission into place and push it onto the dowels on the engine. If it doesn't slide onto the dowels, something is not right. Once the transmission is on the dowels, you can install the six engine to transmission bolts and they should screw in by hand. Slight wiggling of the transmission tail may make this easier. Once bolted, turn the engine using the crankshaft bolt at the damper to align the converter bolts with the flexplate holes. I used a little blue threadlocker on the converter bolts and torqued them to 25 ft/lbs. This are not big bolts, so do not overtorque them or you will likely be buying a new converter because you stripped the bolts.

That's it, check your fluids and road test.

Whew!

Gr8snkbite
04-10-2011, 02:02 PM
Great work nut......anti seize is our friend......:grin:

Birdman
04-10-2011, 04:27 PM
Good details in your write up Bruce lots of great info...thanks for posting the update. :wtg:

68fastback
04-10-2011, 04:41 PM
Great write-up, Bruce! Thanks for sharing... :tiphat2:

Carnut
04-10-2011, 08:14 PM
Thanks guys. Hopefully these write ups will help someone with their older Stang or whatever they might be fixing up. I tried to include tips that a lot of service manuals just don't address as well as some good practices to keep from screwing up expensive parts.

Next on my list will be to installed the internally lighted momentary push button switch into the console chrome. We will be firing up the mill for this operation because the button will flush into a raised rib piece.

Maybe next week end.

CH53Driver
04-10-2011, 10:20 PM
Agree. Good write up and thanks for sharing the tips. I have plans that involve a '68 'Stang. :weg:

Carnut
04-11-2011, 12:40 PM
Agree. Good write up and thanks for sharing the tips. I have plans that involve a '68 'Stang. :weg:

Since you have a wider engine bay, perhaps a big FE motor?:wow2:

The Bone
04-11-2011, 03:39 PM
I did almost the same thing when I restored my Mustang. I had t6he motor rebuilt and the transmission was on the floor. It seemed fine with the old motor but when I did the motor it had way more power. So I installed the transmission without a rebuild. Well you guessed it the transmission wouldn't hold the power so I had to take it out and have it rebuilt. Its always more fun to do it twice. I learned my lesson.
Sure was a lot of work for a couple of $10 parts

Carnut
04-11-2011, 05:33 PM
I did almost the same thing when I restored my Mustang. I had t6he motor rebuilt and the transmission was on the floor. It seemed fine with the old motor but when I did the motor it had way more power. So I installed the transmission without a rebuild. Well you guessed it the transmission wouldn't hold the power so I had to take it out and have it rebuilt. Its always more fun to do it twice. I learned my lesson.
Sure was a lot of work for a couple of $10 parts

Yep, seems like you always pay when chintzing on parts. Pay now or pay later.

68fastback
04-11-2011, 06:20 PM
Since you have a wider engine bay, perhaps a big FE motor?:wow2:

:drool: ... ;-)

Carnut
04-29-2011, 12:40 PM
Working on cars can be very frustrating at times. After I had replaced the front and rear seal, I road tested it and was looking foward to a nice clean garage floor.

It was a FAIL, arrgh.:mad:

I really have to tell you I was ready start throwing tools around but chose to walk away from it for a few days. Finally after a week or so, I put it up on the lift, got out my light and a good pair of glasses. Well, it wasn't leaking from seal, I used a Q-tip to get up there and wipe the seal and crank surface. When I got to the oil pan gasket surface, it was loaded. After a sigh of acceptance, I drained the pan, removed the rack mounting bolts, lowered the rack and removed the pan bolts. To my amazement the pan just dropped down without having to mess with the oil pump pick up.

So, I carefully inspected the one piece oil pan gasket and could not find a thing wrong with it. I inspected the block surfaces and couldn't find anything wrong here either. A quick look at the pan didn't really show anything.

Finally, I decided to lay the pan gasket over the pan to check its fitment. (I am using an aftermarket Moroso oil pan) I noticed that the gasket has a sharp 90 corner where it goes from the flat part of the gasket to the radiused part of the gasket that follows the mains. I compared it to the matching corners on the pan and had an "AHA" moment. The pan corners are not sharp, in fact they had quite a radius on them. Imaging putting a round object into a square corner, you have a hole where the round can't fill the square. Son of a Biotch. Obviously there a four corners like this, two in the front and two in the back. :redcard:The pan manufacturer did a really lousey job of forming these corners and the lip.

So, I spent the extra money and bought a can of the "Right Stuff" rubber gasket maker and a new gasket. I put a small bead on the front cover and rear main and installed the gasket. I use oil pan studs so it held the gasket in place. Then I ran 3 generous beads of sealant around the curved pan surface and a little extra into those 4 corners. I put the pan in place, installed the plan nuts and drew it up finger tight. The sealant squished out nicely and I let it cure for a day before torquing down all of the pan nuts. I reinstalled the rack and job was done.

While I had it up on the lift, I noticed the rear end had developed a leak at the pinion housing. Since I was on a leak mission, I pulled the housing, not the "third member". It is a Ford 9 inch so once you have taken out the five bolts holding to the carrier housing (and obviously the driveshaft) it pulls right out. Have a pan handy because all the fluid gushes out when removing it. An O ring seal is supposed to keep the housing from leaking.

The O ring looked good. I cleaned the housing and the groove for the O ring and had another one of those *&%^$*&^% moments. :doh2:There was a rather large casting defect in the O ring groove that went all the way across the groove. This was no little scratch either, it looked like the Grand Canyon. How the manufacturer never saw this or the guy who built the third member, I'll never know. With this defect, fluid simply goes under the O ring and by passes the seal.

The fix here was more of the right stuff, but a very carefull application is necessary so you don't get it on the flat mating surfaces (this would change your pinion depth). So I basically slathered up the O ring and filled the O ring groove with sealant. The pinion bearing went back into the carrier housing easily. Installed the bolts, driveshaft and waited a few days for the sealant to fully cure. All that is left is to fill the housing with gear oil and cross my fingers.

:cop3:I think it is appropriate to mention, I didn't orginally install the engine seals, I didn't originally install the oil pan gasket, and I didn't orginally install the pinion housing seal. I sure reinstalled all of them though and it kind of irritates the crap of me as this project has been loaded with a lot of issues that I would not normally have to deal with. I could rant on here but it would serve no technical purpose other than, knowing when you have an issue, don't assume that someone else fixed it right or that a part is brand new. I have a box full of sh*tty new parts that I'm savng.

Yeah, I know I'm cranky but......:soapbox:......I would have been a lot farther along with this car without all of the re-do's of someone else's work or defective new parts.

Oh well, that's where we are at on the Mustang; hopefully, some reader will save some time on future project with these posts.

The Bone
04-29-2011, 12:56 PM
:wow2: this had been a tough restomod for sure. Its a good thing you have a lift. I to cant stand oil leaks and sometimes its a lot of work to fix them. i hope this is the end of it and you can enjoy you're car. Show season here starts this Sunday for me. This year I am going to try to keep them close to home.
Post some photos when you have time C.N.

Gr8snkbite
04-29-2011, 05:16 PM
So how was the ride.....:giggle:








:sofa:

Birdman
04-29-2011, 11:04 PM
Good info to know about the differences between the pan and the block.......were the original seals done by a certain company in Vegas by any chance......just wondering...:grin:

Tommy Gun
04-29-2011, 11:20 PM
Carnut, it is a shame to hear that you have gone through all this crap when you assumed it was done right.

Sounds like my luck. :nonono:

68fastback
04-30-2011, 02:02 AM
Bruce, I feel your pain ...really sucks when you put so much effort in a project and have to keep playing redo on someone else's screw-ups/defects. Your write-up's are great! ...clear and unambiguous such that I can visualize exactly what you're dealing with. :tiphat2:

Well, you know what they say -- the harder something is to do the more you appreciate it done. Hope that's the last of the glitches ...so the hassels are off your head and you can finally enjoy the l'il beast!! :chirp:

Carnut
05-02-2011, 12:08 AM
Thanks for the empathy, I am sure all of you have been there at least once.

During the next week, I will be wringing it out so to speak. If all is good, the bottom of the car is going to get a bath.

Took the weekend off wrenching cars and instead drove them. I took the new Shelby (my 08 vert) on the annual Seiligman to Kingman Route 66 Fun Run, just got back. One guy lost an alternator and I didn't have to lift a finger other than play wingman. I may take the 66 out for a drive a little later tonight.

Keep you posted how it turns out.

Tommy Gun
05-02-2011, 12:42 AM
:wtg:

68fastback
05-02-2011, 01:54 AM
Thanks for the empathy, I am sure all of you have been there at least once.

During the next week, I will be wringing it out so to speak. If all is good, the bottom of the car is going to get a bath.

Took the weekend off wrenching cars and instead drove them. I took the new Shelby (my 08 vert) on the annual Seiligman to Kingman Route 66 Fun Run, just got back. One guy lost an alternator and I didn't have to lift a finger other than play wingman. I may take the 66 out for a drive a little later tonight.

Keep you posted how it turns out.

...that's a nice route ...via Peach Springs ...haven't been thru there since the late70s/early80s :chirp:

Shlbylvr
05-02-2011, 12:35 PM
Thanks for the empathy, I am sure all of you have been there at least once.

During the next week, I will be wringing it out so to speak. If all is good, the bottom of the car is going to get a bath.

Took the weekend off wrenching cars and instead drove them. I took the new Shelby (my 08 vert) on the annual Seiligman to Kingman Route 66 Fun Run, just got back. One guy lost an alternator and I didn't have to lift a finger other than play wingman. I may take the 66 out for a drive a little later tonight.

Keep you posted how it turns out.

Sounds like fun.. Pics??

Little Debbie
05-02-2011, 02:45 PM
sorry to hear about your troubles, CN. certainly proves that sometimes if you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself.

really enjoy your posts, and points like this regarding the rings and gaskets can certainly help in the future. :smile:

Carnut
05-02-2011, 08:02 PM
...that's a nice route ...via Peach Springs ...haven't been thru there since the late70s/early80s :chirp:


Sounds like fun.. Pics??

Yeah, it really is a nice route, the road is in better shape than I-40 from the same points. One of the more fun parts I had was on I-40 headed to Sieligman from Kingman. Got seperated from the group I was running with at 85 or so by a couple trucks passing each other on a 6 percent up hill grade. Took forever to clear them and by the time I did, my group was no where in sight. So I got it on up hill, long sweeping curves, wind gusts and over "a buck and a quarter" on the speedo. The sound of the supercharger is so cool. I caught my group pretty quickly then. Car handled great. I don't like to get to crazy on the road, its a ragtop and I want no mishaps.

I finally ditched my old Kodak and bought a digital camera. I have to fiqure out how to download and resize the pics cause they wont load at the current size. Sorry, no pics of the the high speed run or my pale, shaken passenger.

68fastback
05-03-2011, 02:43 AM
Bruce, this free image-resizer windows app (http://www.obviousidea.com/windows-software/light-image-resizer/)might be usefull -- I've never used it since I use Photoshop, but sounds like what you'd need.

If you want me to resize any for you (using photoshop) just let know and I'll send you my email addy.

Carnut
05-07-2011, 10:09 PM
I think all of the leaks are good forever, knock on wood.

While shaking out the car, the ignition started going away. It was getting progressively worse and I narrowed it down to the MSD Ready to Run distributor. This distributor comes with an integral ignition module inside the distributor, underneath the base plate. I had 3 options as I saw it, buy a new distributor, nearly $400 after shipping and handling, send it back to MSD and have them repair it or buy a new module. Sending it back would have been nearly the same price as new distributor and the module was over $200 plus.

I believe engine heat caused the failure, and all of the above options left me with the same problem. More money and car thats down for several weeks or more waiting on parts. None of these options appealed to me. I did a little thinking about it, wishing I just had regular distributor with a MSD box.

The light bulb went on, I removed the electronics from the old distributor and re-wired it to accept the box. A new MSD was about $240 plus shipping and handling. A little high so I did some looking. MSD makes a brand call Street Fire, their economy branded product but made by MSD. They make a unit that appears to be nearly identical with all the features including multi spark and built in adjustable rev controller. I think it is the same unit without all of the MSD branding. The amazing thing is it cost me $140.00

I installed it yesterday, ignition is fixed . The box is mounted away from direct engine heat in a ventilated area with some air space behind it. I corrected what I viewed as a continuing problem (ignition module in distributor+heat=no worky).

The good news is, I fixed for a heck of lot less money than I orginally thought. I also stayed off the water tower.

So I think for now, I am through my gremlins and can started on finishing the rest of the car.

BTW, it blows drag radials off shifting 1-2 and 2-3, woohoo.

Black Vert SS
05-08-2011, 01:02 AM
We reallyneed pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

68fastback
05-08-2011, 04:44 AM
+1 :grin:

...so this was yet another defective product, in essence -- and really speaks to atermarket quality ...pretty pathetic, imo.

Hope that's the last of the gremlins, Bruce!!

Carnut
05-08-2011, 02:54 PM
Uploading some pics, I hope

Carnut
05-08-2011, 02:59 PM
A few more

Black Vert SS
05-08-2011, 03:02 PM
Beautiful car, Bruce. That engine is Rockin!!!!!

Carnut
05-08-2011, 03:06 PM
and a few more engine pics

Tommy Gun
05-08-2011, 03:13 PM
Okay, now that is nice! :wtg:





....looks like a squirrel tried to nest in your dash wiring though. :giggle:

.

Carnut
05-08-2011, 03:24 PM
Beautiful car, Bruce. That engine is Rockin!!!!!

It's running well now, needs a hood still and it sits a little too high in front. Also need to finish the interior.

As far as the hood goes, I bought a fiberglass one a several months back, it used the 67 GT500 style scoops and is prepped now, ready for paint.

The front sits high because I took a lot of weight off the front by relocating the battery to the back, using aluminum heads, intake, and water pump, using aluminum radiator instead brass, using headers instead of cast iron manifoild, using an aluminum transmission instead of the old cast iron, using aluminum master cylinder instead of cast iron, etc. I figure I lost a couple hundred pounds off the front end. I am still leaning on replacing the stock springs and shocks with Total Control adjustable coil overs, 400 lb springs.

The car is still far from done, but my pocket book is running a little low right now, I need to save up a little.

Carnut
05-08-2011, 03:29 PM
Okay, now that is nice! :wtg:





....looks like a squirrel tried to nest in your dash wiring though. :giggle:

.

Pesky squirrels.

Yeah, that gets all cleaned up when I finish wiring in the controls for the transmission. Overdrive lock out, program switch and manual shift switch. It all gets hidden by the factory console.

In the meantime, I will put out some squirrel traps for the neighbors.

CH53Driver
05-08-2011, 03:36 PM
Awesome 'Stang! Love the color. :wtg:

King Cobra
05-08-2011, 05:28 PM
Very nice!:yea1:

Carnut
05-08-2011, 06:45 PM
Awesome 'Stang! Love the color. :wtg:


Very nice!:yea1:

:tiphat2:

Joe G
05-08-2011, 09:55 PM
Just like I remember Bruce. Glad it's finally on the road. :wtg:

HSURB
05-08-2011, 10:08 PM
Uploading some pics, I hope

Wow, that's a seriously awesome Fastback.

HSURB®

Shlbylvr
05-08-2011, 10:22 PM
What a sweet project. She looks amazing.

68fastback
05-09-2011, 12:58 AM
That is one sweet fastback, Bruce. I like verythng about it ...clean and very stock-ish look :weg: ...love the subtle stripes too! Thanls for sharing!!

So, will you be flying or towing to Orfstock?!! :shades: :banana: :biggrin:

Carnut
05-09-2011, 01:48 AM
That is one sweet fastback, Bruce. I like verythng about it ...clean and very stock-ish look :weg: ...love the subtle stripes too! Thanls for sharing!!

So, will you be flying or towing to Orfstock?!! :shades: :banana: :biggrin:

I hope it's enough of a sleeper to allow me to really blindside the street competition.

I still have lots to do before its ready to be shown anywhere.

Thats means more tech stuff as we continue on.

68fastback
05-09-2011, 02:03 AM
...the lopey idle might give it away :biggrin: if not they deserve to get smoked! :chirp:

...squirrel memory probably makes it easy to recall where all those wires go :shades: ;-)

Orf
05-09-2011, 01:31 PM
That car is beautiful.

Well done.

Birdman
05-10-2011, 12:24 AM
Sweet looking 65 Fastback indeed. Nice to finally see some pics of it !!!!

Beautiful car nicely done Bruce! :wtg:

JTB
05-10-2011, 05:31 PM
Uploading some pics, I hope

Spectacular! :wtg:

Congratulations on getting it on the road.

Little Debbie
05-11-2011, 10:47 AM
very nice, CN! good to finally see some pics of her.

Carnut
05-11-2011, 06:59 PM
Thanks again all, glad you like the car. I will post up additional pictures as the car continues to progress.

Shlbylvr
05-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Thanks again all, glad you like the car. I will post up additional pictures as the car continues to progress.

:waiting:

Joe G
05-11-2011, 07:11 PM
:waiting:

:goodpost:

68fastback
05-12-2011, 12:59 AM
...we made a special SU event to commemorate the lauch:


:banana: :wave: :banana:
~ No Snivelstock! ~
GARAGE EDITION
:banana: :wave: :banana:


:grin:

Tommy Gun
05-12-2011, 01:05 AM
:groan:

68fastback
05-12-2011, 01:15 AM
...or not :haha:

Carnut
05-12-2011, 05:57 PM
Here is what I ordered for the 66 Mustang today. It replaces the stock springs, shocks and spring perch. Basically a bolt in. As you can see from the previous photos, the nose is quite high from the weight reductions I affected on the car. So, the spring rate is 50 lbs less and I got the one inch lowering kit.

And yes I will post pictures when they are going in, since I now have a camera.

68fastback
05-12-2011, 06:45 PM
Sweet!! They look to be double-adjustable, so you can have comfy compression damping to keep your filings in your teeth and stiff rebound damping at the same time ...which produces a nice hunkering-down or 'down-lock' effect at speed ...great for the twisties ;-) ...or the opposite settings for weight-xfer on launch at the drags

Carnut
05-22-2011, 01:29 PM
Still waiting on parts I ordered so I decided to get the switch installed for the Overdrive Cancel switch. I ordered a momentary contact switch with an integral LED light.

Other than the PITA of the tiny little terminals, lost reading glasses, and too much coffee, the install was rather straight forward. Power to switch and the LED. Circuits from the NO pole and LED to the controller.

Started it up, everything worked except, the LED would light in the normal mode (should only light in the OD Cancel mode) faintly at idle then brighter as the rpm increased. The brighter is obviously because the alternator is putting out more voltage. The light is considerably brighter in the OD Cancel mode.

The LED out circuit is supposed to ground in the cancel mode and that is why it is lighting brightly. I must be getting some sort of a ground, not a good one mind you, but some, in the normal mode, causing the LED to light.

I really haven't had that much experience with LED's but do know power goes to the anode and ground goes to the cathode. I also am under the belief that they can be voltage sensitive.

I also read somewhere that it is necessary to add a dropping resistor to the voltage side of the LED in some instances.

Given all of this, I am assuming tha too high of a voltage (over 12.5) is allowing the LED to light through some sort of induced ground.

Any thoughts from any of you electronics gurus out there??

mustang loco
05-22-2011, 01:45 PM
Uploading some pics, I hope

Car looks great Bruce....read bit's & pieces of your thread,but great build & project for sure.Congrats on a great looking ride!!:beerchug: