Future Door Panel Vinyl Problem ?

[Tommy Gun]

Ford Escape and Ford Taurus vehicles of the past few years have been having issues w/ the vinyl separating from the door panels.

What happens is the foam backing on the vinyl deteriorates from heat and/or cigarette smoke.

Something in cigarette smoke escalates the issue and causes the vinyl to separate from what I can tell about 2 years sooner in some cases.

These panels have been able to be fixed by qualified people. :shades:

The vinyl can be adhered back to the plastic door panel.


Forward to S197 Mustangs.

I'm starting to see a few door panel separations on Mustangs and today got a chance to try fix one. (I said try :shades: )


Here is the door panel w/ vinyl removed.


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/Door.jpg


Notice the fuzzy backing. Not sure what Ford was thinking here, but you need a smooth clean surface to get good adhesion to remount the vinyl....of course that isn't their concern. :nonono:


Closer shot. The stuff looks like jute carpet backing, but I couldn't remove it.



http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/door2.jpg



Taped off ready for glue...


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/door3.jpg



Vinyl glued back on, but... if you look close the top corners are already starting to separate. :nonono:


The glue I use is a contact type cement and is very strong and no reason for it to separate, especially that early. :nonono:


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/door4.jpg



Just hope that this doesn't become wide spread.

Better for cars that are garage kept.

Better for cars that are not left locked up out in the sun.

Better for cars that are not smoked in.


.

[mustang loco]

wow,that's weird,especially for the "smoking owner's" and smoke effect on these panels..hmmm.Great job though Bill,thx for sharing info !!

[Tommy Gun]

wow,that's weird,especially for the "smoking owner's" and smoke effect on these panels..hmmm.Great job though Bill,thx for sharing info !!


I have learned over the years that cigarette smoke attacks either the glue or the foam backing on these type materials.

Cigarette smoke is the main cause for cloth headliners to drop pre-maturely also.



.

[Joe G]

:wow2:


That sucks.


At least I know who to call if I have problems in the future. :shades:

[Joe G]

Oh... and nice thread! :wtg:

[mustang loco]

I have learned over the years that cigarette smoke attacks either the glue or the foam backing on these type materials.

Cigarette smoke is the main cause for cloth headliners to drop pre-maturely also.



.

Really didn't have a clue about this,first time I hear this...thx bro' and very good to know!!

[Tommy Gun]

:wow2:


That sucks.


At least I know who to call if I have problems in the future. :shades:


This one taught me a lesson.

I won't get involved w/ another one.

I spent over an hour on this one for no pay because I didn't resolve the problem.

.

[Birdman]

Good thread TG. Good information nice pics too! :wtg: I guess if you wanted to change the color of that inside panel that's the way it would have to be done right?

[Tommy Gun]

Good thread TG. Good information nice pics too! :wtg: I guess if you wanted to change the color of that inside panel that's the way it would have to be done right?


If you want the color changed it can be dyed.

I would not remove it to replace the material or you will be in the same boat of not being able to re attach it.

[Joe G]

If you want the color changed it can be dyed.

I would not remove it to replace the material or you will be in the same boat of not being able to re attach it.

How about using this?


http://www.foodandhome.com/sites/default/files/images/pro-grade-pneumatic-nail-staple-gun.jpg

[Tommy Gun]

How about using this?


http://www.foodandhome.com/sites/default/files/images/pro-grade-pneumatic-nail-staple-gun.jpg



That's what the used car manager wanted to do. :nonono:

.

[mustang loco]

That's what the used car manager wanted to do. :nonono:

.

:ohsnap2:

[Joe G]

That's what the used car manager wanted to do. :nonono:

.Sounds like a smart guy. Those sales guys are always right.



:shades:





:haha:

[68fastback]

Great insight, Bill :tiphat2: Rep points for sharing!! :banana: :biggrin:

I'd heard that before about cigarette smoke.

What about coating that 'jute' first with something that will harden and stabilize the fibers (like a paint or urethane or ??) and then using that hardened base to apply the adhesive to? ...more hassle than it's worth?

[Tommy Gun]

Great insight, Bill :tiphat2: Rep points for sharing!! :banana: :biggrin:

I'd heard that before about cigarette smoke.

What about coating that 'jute' first with something that will harden and stabilize the fibers (like a paint or urethane or ??) and then using that hardened base to apply the adhesive to? ...more hassle than it's worth?


I thought about using resin as a base.

If it were a friends car that I could mess w/ for a few days and perfect that would be one thing.

When it's during the day when I'm trying to make bead money for CoPilot, I don't have disposable time to try many outlets.

Perhaps I could find an old panel at a body shop or junkyard and find a way to fix these before I start turning down tons of them.

I need to find the true cost of the panels and see if it would even be feasible to fix one for someone ?

I'm guessing the time and materials involved it would be a $100-$150 job, but if a new panel is $200 it's not worth it.

If the panel is closer to $400 then it may be worth it.

[Boston Mike]

I have 2 spare door panels.......

[ati]

I have 2 spare door panels.......

Are those the 2 door panels you promised me?
http://stangsunited.com/showthread.php?1769-07-09-GT500-convertible-inner-Door-Panels&highlight=door+panels

[Boston Mike]

Are those the 2 door panels you promised me?
http://stangsunited.com/showthread.php?1769-07-09-GT500-convertible-inner-Door-Panels&highlight=door+panels

Oops.............totally forgot................I still haven't done my interior plan.............not sure when I'm gonna have time. The two I have are the ones that will eventually get into my car, not the two that would be coming out of my car for you.

[68fastback]

I thought about using resin as a base.

If it were a friends car that I could mess w/ for a few days and perfect that would be one thing.

When it's during the day when I'm trying to make bead money for CoPilot, I don't have disposable time to try many outlets.

Perhaps I could find an old panel at a body shop or junkyard and find a way to fix these before I start turning down tons of them.

I need to find the true cost of the panels and see if it would even be feasible to fix one for someone ?

I'm guessing the time and materials involved it would be a $100-$150 job, but if a new panel is $200 it's not worth it.

If the panel is closer to $400 then it may be worth it.

Makes sense!! Hopefully Ford is already on top of the potential problem and is or has changed the process.

[Tommy Gun]

Are those the 2 door panels you promised me?
http://stangsunited.com/showthread.php?1769-07-09-GT500-convertible-inner-Door-Panels&highlight=door+panels


:ohsnap:

[Tommy Gun]

Oops.............totally forgot................I still haven't done my interior plan.............not sure when I'm gonna have time. The two I have are the ones that will eventually get into my car, not the two that would be coming out of my car for you.


Why would you replace your door panels?

[Tommy Gun]

Makes sense!! Hopefully Ford is already on top of the potential problem and is or has changed the process.


This is part of the reason I believe companies come out w/ new body styles, so they don't have to recall/replace parts on their dollar.

Change over the car and let the public deal w/ fixing the car. :nonono:

[68fastback]

Many states put no time limits on latent/hidden defects anyway ...regardless of any purchase contract wording to the contrary. Most folks just don't realize it and companies don't make it easy to claim on but the state's Attorney General's office loves to help with that stuff.

You know those statements you often see at the end of a purchase agreement or in a awarranty to the effect: '...and you may have other specific legal rights not abridged by this agreement' or 'this warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may have other rights which vary from state to state' :shades: ...those are all low-profile ways of saying 'in your state we might have to fix any problems with this darn thing forever if it's because we messed up the design or build in the first place' :rofl:

[Tommy Gun]

Many states put no time limits on latent/hidden defects anyway ...regardless of any purchase contract wording to the contrary. Most folks just don't realize it and companies don't make it easy to claim on but the state's Attorney General's office loves to help with that stuff.

You know those statements you often see at the end of a purchase agreement or in a awarranty to the effect: '...and you may have other specific legal rights not abridged by this agreement' or 'this warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may have other rights which vary from state to state' :shades: ...those are all low-profile ways of saying 'in your state we might have to fix any problems with this darn thing forever if it's because we messed up the design or build in the first place' :rofl:


Never thought of that, but....I think I would pay $300 for a new door panel rather than spend 6 months and countless hours on the phone and at the dealer arguing w/ trying to get it resolved.

[68fastback]

Never thought of that, but....I think I would pay $300 for a new door panel rather than spend 6 months and countless hours on the phone and at the dealer arguing w/ trying to get it resolved.

I know ...that's the PITA and they know it ...

That's why, after a vendor pushes back, I just fill out the NY AG's complaint form and attach the brief letter that I documented to the vendor (states how I expect them to resolve it to my satisfaction) -- never fails! magicall you get a call from the vendor offering to fix the problem! It does take 15 minutes to write the letter and another five to fill out the AG form, but if a vendor ticks me off with their intransigence I just feel obligated to help them see the light -lol.

[Tommy Gun]

Oops.............totally forgot................I still haven't done my interior plan.............not sure when I'm gonna have time. The two I have are the ones that will eventually get into my car, not the two that would be coming out of my car for you.


Why would you replace your door panels?




:hurryup1:


.

[Cheftjpeck]

My driver side one I previously repaired is coming apart again
:nonono:
Time to junk my car

[Tommy Gun]

Yeah, unfortunately the contact cement type glues don't bond to the door as well as it bonds to the material.

That's why I stopped doing them.

[Joe G]

Yeah, unfortunately the contact cement type glues don't bond to the door as well as it bonds to the material.

Now you tell him. :groan:

[Joe G]

That's why I stopped doing them.
:quitter:

[Joe G]

Time to junk my car

I thought Vista Blue was automatically "junk" when new? :popcorn:





















:tiptoe:

[Carnut]

You would think there would be some sort of primer, like maybe even PVC primer.

[Tommy Gun]

Now you tell him. :groan:


I told him earlier in this post.

Sometimes you need to let people learn on their own because they won't listen to a professional. :uwelcome:

.

[Tommy Gun]

You would think there would be some sort of primer, like maybe even PVC primer.


Problem is the door panel is left w some coating and fuzz that I haven't seen before?

If there were something to coat over it and smooth it out a bit, it would be possible to fix.

I wish I had a guinea pig door panel to mess with and find a cure. Not worth it to me to buy a new one, I need one that has already dis attached itself?

If this was more prevalent I would look into it more, so far I've only dealt w 4-5 of them....compared to early Ford Taurus and Ford Escape door panels....I have repaired at least 50-60 of those panels at an average of $65 per panel. On those vehicles, when the vinyl separates it leaves a smoother surface that accepts the glue agent very well, so holds up much much longer.

And again, as stated before, these panels are manufacturer glued the same fashion as headliner material...and are highly affected by cigarette smoke. I've seen headliners and door panels disconnect in smoked in cars 3-4 years before non smoked in cars.

My car is 7 years old and garage kept, never smoked in and I can feel that the foam behind the panels is getting soft and probably going to try to disconnect in a year or two. :nonono:

I'd buy a couple new panels and have them on hand for when this happens....but...if Ford has stored away some of these panels and they haven't been climate controlled properly or some dufus is smoking everyday in the warehouse near them, then they are no better than what I have. :banghead:


.

[Tommy Gun]

OMG a Dan sized post, hope someone reads it? :banghead:

[Joe G]

I told him earlier in this post.

.
He doesn't read back. :reading:

[Joe G]

OMG a Dan sized post, hope someone reads it? :banghead:

Nope. :no:

[Tommy Gun]

Such is life....



I've learned to move on...

[Joe G]

Such is life....



I've learned to move on...
:webers:

[Alloy Dave]

I don't read back, what's going on in here?

[Tommy Gun]

:webers:


It's been hard, but I think I got it.

Monkey helped. :rofl3:

.

[Cheftjpeck]

Panel repair sucks...:nonono:

[Cheftjpeck]

PS: Joe G :boink:

[Joe G]

PS: Joe G :boink:
:sorry:

[Tommy Gun]

:rofl3:





:tiptoe:

[RedNightmare]

Ughhhhhttp://stangsunited.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15199&stc=1

[Tommy Gun]

Yep :(

[Carnut]

So how do you fix it?

[Joe G]

So how do you fix it?

TG won't share. :kickrock:

[Carnut]

TG won't share. :kickrock:

Sounds selfish.

[RedNightmare]

Im having an upholestry guy fix mine

[Tommy Gun]

:wtg:

[Tommy Gun]

TG won't share. :kickrock:


Guessing you never read the first post. :shades:

[Joe G]

Guessing you never read the first post. :shades:

Why? I don't read back. :reading:

[Tommy Gun]

Nothing :look:

[Joe G]

:haha:

[Carnut]

I still don't know how you fix it yourself. Forget the upholstery guy.

[Tommy Gun]

Guess you didn't read the first post either lol

[68fastback]

Is it possible to stabilize that fuzzy stuff with something first ...as a base for the spray adhesive?

[Carnut]

I bet something that would penetrate the foam, harden and allow sanding might work. Might have do a couple applications.

[Tommy Gun]

Is it possible to stabilize that fuzzy stuff with something first ...as a base for the spray adhesive?


Since......everyone wants stupid cheap...I "usually" just spray the adhesive on the fuzz and put the material back on.

To the 90% it looks fine...to me I don't like all the bumps :(


To the other 10%... Usually just the people in our Mustang club lol...for the little extra time :spend: I sand it best I can to get it smooth...a real pain. Then try to adhere ...still a real pain.


I hate doing them...think it's worth twice what I charge...and at times think I should just stop doing them...maybe this year I will stop....only reason I still do them is "thinking" that any compitition is doing them instead...although I think they hate them too.


An upholstery shop is better equipped maybe to do them...< I say that because they "may" have access to a new piece of material and cut to size.

Part of the problem w the factory piece is not only affected (or effected :look: ) by weather and smoking is that the material shrinks...then a real pain to get the edges clean.

Whatever you think of me these years...When I do my work I seek perfection. It is what has kept me on top of my game over the years. Maybe someone is better, but I try very hard at being the best I can....if the edges look iffy it bothers me...id rather the job be perfect than to be 75% okay like the competitors. :(

[Tommy Gun]

Sorry for the Dan post.

Hopefully one day someone will read it. :(

[Tommy Gun]

:spitcopy:

[Tommy Gun]

:oops:

[Carnut]

Okay. :reading:

[Carnut]

Still :reading:

[Carnut]

and :reading:

[Tommy Gun]

Do you even have an Escape, Taurus, Mustang, BMW 5 series, Jetta, Passat or Versa that has this issue? :look:

[Joe G]

Why not just charge more?

[68fastback]

Since......everyone wants stupid cheap...I "usually" just spray the adhesive on the fuzz and put the material back on.

To the 90% it looks fine...to me I don't like all the bumps :(


To the other 10%... Usually just the people in our Mustang club lol...for the little extra time :spend: I sand it best I can to get it smooth...a real pain. Then try to adhere ...still a real pain.


I hate doing them...think it's worth twice what I charge...and at times think I should just stop doing them...maybe this year I will stop....only reason I still do them is "thinking" that any compitition is doing them instead...although I think they hate them too.


An upholstery shop is better equipped maybe to do them...< I say that because they "may" have access to a new piece of material and cut to size.

Part of the problem w the factory piece is not only affected (or effected :look: ) by weather and smoking is that the material shrinks...then a real pain to get the edges clean.

Whatever you think of me these years...When I do my work I seek perfection. It is what has kept me on top of my game over the years. Maybe someone is better, but I try very hard at being the best I can....if the edges look iffy it bothers me...id rather the job be perfect than to be 75% okay like the competitors. :(

From what I've seen I think you do amazing work, Bill!


Sorry for the Dan post.

Hopefully one day someone will read it. :(

I like "Dan" posts like that :grin: ...good info!! :tiphat2:


:spitcopy:

:lol:

[Tommy Gun]

Why not just charge more?


There comes a point when you can just buy a new part for a couple more dollars.... When still available.

[Alloy Dave]

Ford Escape and Ford Taurus vehicles of the past few years have been having issues w/ the vinyl separating from the door panels.

What happens is the foam backing on the vinyl deteriorates from heat and/or cigarette smoke.

Something in cigarette smoke escalates the issue and causes the vinyl to separate from what I can tell about 2 years sooner in some cases.

These panels have been able to be fixed by qualified people. :shades:

The vinyl can be adhered back to the plastic door panel.


Forward to S197 Mustangs.

I'm starting to see a few door panel separations on Mustangs and today got a chance to try fix one. (I said try :shades: )


Here is the door panel w/ vinyl removed.


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/Door.jpg


Notice the fuzzy backing. Not sure what Ford was thinking here, but you need a smooth clean surface to get good adhesion to remount the vinyl....of course that isn't their concern. :nonono:


Closer shot. The stuff looks like jute carpet backing, but I couldn't remove it.



http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/door2.jpg



Taped off ready for glue...


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/door3.jpg



Vinyl glued back on, but... if you look close the top corners are already starting to separate. :nonono:


The glue I use is a contact type cement and is very strong and no reason for it to separate, especially that early. :nonono:


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/Mustang/door4.jpg



Just hope that this doesn't become wide spread.

Better for cars that are garage kept.

Better for cars that are not left locked up out in the sun.

Better for cars that are not smoked in.


.
Are there any recent updates on this?
















:hide:

[Joe G]

There comes a point when you can just buy a new part for a couple more dollars.... When still available.

Oh. :wtg:

[The Bone]

So far mine are still good.

[Tommy Gun]

So are mine, but my car is usually inside out of direct sun most days and has never been smoked in.

[68fastback]

I hear cars capable of more tire smoke detach first :giggle:

...which is why my Fusion is flawless :haha:

[Carnut]

I hear cars capable of more tire smoke detach first :giggle:

...which is why my Fusion is flawless :haha:

Joe's is too.

[Tommy Gun]

:goodone:

[Carnut]

:webers:

[68fastback]

:lol: