Garage lighting...

[onecrazydog]

Decided to replace some of the halogen lights for fluorescent tube fixtures in the garage... First time installing fluorescent fixtures, went 4' with 4 bulbs... They are the smaller bulbs, t5 or something? 32 or 36 watt, 6500K... I told the guy I wanted the brightest ones I could get...

Wasn't sure how I was going to hang them by myself, (I like to keep phone a friend for big projects) then I noticed a knockout right in the centre of the light fixture... So I got some round backbox covers with knockouts in the middle, found some 1/2" threaded connectors, and came up with this idea,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0816.JPG

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0817.JPG

After I got the light all straight, I put a couple screws in also...

Connections to the lights were easy,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0820.JPG


One down, 2 more to go for now...

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0823.JPG

[Joe G]

:wtg:


I'm gonna have a bright garage too.

[onecrazydog]

:wtg:


I'm gonna have a bright garage too.

No doubt!!

[Joe G]

No doubt!!

:idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:

:idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:

:idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:

:idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:

:idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:

[Joe G]

Seems like I have a short somewhere.... :doh2:

[ati]

Don't forget to send your burnt out tubes to TG for proper recycling.

[68fastback]

TG's recycling and testing center:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypwvlZ8wOJA :giggle:

[68fastback]

Decided to replace some of the halogen lights for fluorescent tube fixtures in the garage... First time installing fluorescent fixtures, went 4' with 4 bulbs... They are the smaller bulbs, t5 or something? 32 or 36 watt, 6500K... I told the guy I wanted the brightest ones I could get...

Wasn't sure how I was going to hang them by myself, (I like to keep phone a friend for big projects) then I noticed a knockout right in the centre of the light fixture... So I got some round backbox covers with knockouts in the middle, found some 1/2" threaded connectors, and came up with this idea,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0816.JPG

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0817.JPG

After I got the light all straight, I put a couple screws in also...

Connections to the lights were easy,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0820.JPG


One down, 2 more to go for now...

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0823.JPG

Nice!

6500K is a good choice too ...similar to mid-day sunlight :wtg:

They also make full-spectrum tubes of similar color temp (maybe a bit warmer). Lots of studies show that people working under full-sectrum lamps are more productive and suffer less depression at work (seriously) because they most closely approximate the spectrum of natural sunlight. Not surprisingly, plants grow very well under them too -lol. You get a a bit less 'brightness' because some of the energy is going into less visible portions of the visible spectrum (sounds like an oxymoron -lol) but that's because some frequencies have less apparent brightness than others. Anyhow, I've used them in my office and in Jan's craft room. I like th emore natural light quality and in Jan's craft rom th emotivation is more color accuracy (for quiltmaking, etc). Anyhow, just some thoughts/considerations.

Joe probably has more detailed info on this stuff and I'm wondering if linear LED tubes are ready for prime time color-spectrum wise (Joe?) ...would be really nice to have the stability of LEDs in a tube if the color spectrum is right.

[Joe G]

"Full spectrum" lighting, overall, is mostly a gimmick and a marketing term meaning "charge people 20x more for a lamp that is approximately 5000k in color temperature with a 90+ CRI rating so that they feel better."


:lol:





It's that "white light" (ie: more blue and violet color spectrum) and the AMOUNT (ie: lumen output) of light that is the most important as that is what we are typically missing when we're inside a lot - especially in the winter.

[68fastback]

"Full spectrum" lighting, overall, is mostly a gimmick and a marketing term meaning "charge people 20x more for a lamp that is approximately 5000k in color temperature with a 90+ CRI rating so that they feel better."


:lol:





It's that "white light" (ie: more blue and violet color spectrum) and the AMOUNT (ie: lumen output) of light that is the most important as that is what we are typically missing when we're inside a lot - especially in the winter.

I agree ...the lamps labeled full spectrum are gimmick rip-offs. However, I think the ones that have mid-day color (more blue & violet, but not UV) are the way to go ...that's what we did. But they also work well for plants tho not labelled as such (the 'full-sectrum' often are sold for plants) but, yeah, we stayed away from the ones labeled full spectrum because of the price and becasue too much energy is wasted in the UV and near-UV end, therefore less apparent light for a given wattage since tubes are 'rated' by wattage. Also, Jan's fabric doesn't want the UV (that plants adore!) of full-spectrum because it fades fabrics pretty quickly, etc and folded fabric therefore becomes 'striped' and unuseable in short order. That would be an expensive disaster. I even talked to the manufacturer of the fixtures we used to make sure that the UV filter in the plastic cover cut in about where the UV int he lamps (not full-spectrum) rolled-off -- no sense wasting wattage only to filter that spectrum out, etc.

I imagine the higher UV of full-sectrum can be good if you're affected with S.A.D. (seaosnal affective disorder) but I was just referring to the studies showing that bright mid-day lighting (vs 'warm') has shown general mood/productivity benefits in offices environments ...possibly (dunno) because bright mid-day lighting is more like being outside -- the environment we've evolved in. People just seem to be happier and more productive in good lighting.

[Joe G]

I imagine the higher UV of full-sectrum can be good if you're affected with S.A.D. (seaosnal affective disorder) but I was just referring to the studies showing that bright mid-day lighting (vs 'warm') has shown general mood/productivity benefits in offices environments ...possibly (dunno) because bright mid-day lighting is more like being outside -- the environment we've evolved in. People just seem to be happier and more productive in good lighting.

:iagree:

[68fastback]

:idea: ...maybe TG's cave needs a lighting make-over :giggle:

[onecrazydog]

I imagine the higher UV of full-sectrum can be good if you're affected with S.A.D.


Or if you want a tan!!

[Joe G]

:idea: ...maybe TG's cave needs a lighting make-over :giggle:

Maybe his bad mood is due to light deprivation?









I think I need to call in a few favors and get him something that may finally get him over his funk. :idea:



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nC_cMfNAiPQ/T0usMVd96aI/AAAAAAAABuM/WDxU1npdN0U/s1600/FloodLights.jpg

[68fastback]

Maybe his bad mood is due to light deprivation?









I think I need to call in a few favors and get him something that may finally get him over his funk. :idea:



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nC_cMfNAiPQ/T0usMVd96aI/AAAAAAAABuM/WDxU1npdN0U/s1600/FloodLights.jpg


:lol: That'll do it! :wtg:

[68fastback]

Or if you want a tan!!

:biggrin:

...need a pack of these (http://www.elightbulbs.com/catalog_product.cfm?source=NexTagCSE&prod=KE73126) :yikes:

What about the lights from the Raptor :toast: :grin:

[onecrazydog]

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0855.JPG

The halogen fixture at the top of the pic is one of the ones I am replacing... they each had 3 50w gu10 bulbs, but it was not the correct light for the garage... They were cheap and affordable when I built the garage though!!

[68fastback]

Joe, I have 6 100W equiv CFLs in teh garage. If I were to go to 4' fluorescent tubes are there ones that will start rliably at 0*F ...the CFLs start no prob (tho take a minute to get fully white) -- just curious. Also, are there any practical LED tubes out yet? I'm assuming they'd start at most any temp but do LED tubes use special fixtures or do they just ignore the ballast and I could therefore buy el cheapo fixtures for them? ...if they can use existing fl fixtures?

[Joe G]

Joe, I have 6 100W equiv CFLs in teh garage. If I were to go to 4' fluorescent tubes are there ones that will start rliably at 0*F ...the CFLs start no prob (tho take a minute to get fully white) -- just curious. Also, are there any practical LED tubes out yet? I'm assuming they'd start at most any temp but do LED tubes use special fixtures or do they just ignore the ballast and I could therefore buy el cheapo fixtures for them? ...if they can use existing fl fixtures?

1) Standard T8 lamps start below 0*F - but it depends on the ballast. Some (cheap ones) are rated at 20*F, better ones are 0*F, best are about -10*F. You need more starting power the colder it is.

2) I don't like most of the "LED tubes" that are meant to replace T12/T8 lamps. They're still not as efficient (lumens per watt used) as the best fluorescent systems - and the best fluorescents are now rated at 60,000+ hours life, so that's no longer a selling point for LED. Most of the LED tubes now bypass the fluorescent ballast and run directly off of line voltage or have a built-in transformer. LED's love the cold, so that's no problem. Most issues come from lack of heat sink when it gets hot.

[68fastback]

Thanks, Joe!

[onecrazydog]

Getting brighter... Decided to replace all nine halgogen fixtures... 5 done, four to go...


http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0856.JPG

[Highwayman]

This is an awesome Lighting Technical thread, I copied and saved most of the information provided here for when I start to replace bulbs and fixtures.

[Joe G]

This is an awesome Lighting Technical thread, I copied and saved most of the information provided here for when I start to replace bulbs and fixtures.
:uwelcome:

[onecrazydog]

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/image-cache/Garage/IMG_0863_disp512.jpg


Just to show that I am not totally ocd,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/image-cache/Garage/IMG_0865_disp512.jpg

[Joe G]

Just to show that I am not totally ocd,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/image-cache/Garage/IMG_0865_disp512.jpg


:haha:

[68fastback]

...but it is very orderly and clean chaos goin' on there, OCD :biggrin: ...I'm soooo exactly the same way :yes: ;-)

[onecrazydog]

Finished the work lights today,

the three fixtures down the middle are all on one light switch,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060010.JPG


The six on the sides are on a second switch,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060011.JPG
http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060012.JPG

On a third switch there are 4 fixtures that have dual curly cfl's that are each equivalent to 100 watt incandescents...

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060015.JPG
http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060016.JPG

Got light...

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060002.JPG

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060007.JPG



Hmmmm, deep thought... Or confusion...

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060001.JPG










http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060017.JPG

[HSURB]

Where did everything from the bench go Stacey?

Awesome lighting. I must come visit someday.

HSURB®

[Joe G]

Hmmmm, deep thought... Or confusion...

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1060001.JPG




:spitcopy:

[68fastback]

:wtg:

[onecrazydog]

Where did everything from the bench go Stacey?

Awesome lighting. I must come visit someday.

HSURB®

Everything went back in it's place!! Lol!! I need to do some reorganizing though...


Thanks!!

Come on up anytime!!

[onecrazydog]

:wtg:

:webers:


Good power savings too... 126 watts per fixture compared to 150... So 216 watts less!!

[Joe G]

Come on up anytime!!

I'll need to update my Passport... but I'd love to come up for a long weekend.


OCDfest! :party:

[onecrazydog]

I'll need to update my Passport... but I'd love to come up for a long weekend.


OCDfest! :party:


:woohoo:

[Joe G]

:woohoo:

Is this an invite?

According to TG I need to do this months in advance, and get a signed and notarized reply in order for this to be an official invite. :look:

[onecrazydog]

Is this an invite?

According to TG I need to do this months in advance, and get a signed and notarized reply in order for this to be an official invite. :look:

You have an open invitation!! No notarizations needed...

[Joe G]

You have an open invitation!! No notarizations needed...
:webers:

[Alloy Dave]

Looks great OCD!

When I did my woodshop, I asked the electrician how many lights he would recommend...he looked at the space and said 5. I said, ok, then install 7. :look: I have to have tons of light when working on detailed things. I like dim light for some things though. :weg:

[68fastback]

Looks great OCD!

When I did my woodshop, I asked the electrician how many lights he would recommend...he looked at the space and said 5. I said, ok, then install 7. :look: I have to have tons of light when working on detailed things. I like dim sum things though. :weg:


Me too -- yum! (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s_PcUftK3Rk/T_8Pa4WENWI/AAAAAAAAAD8/PVBVjoifWII/s1600/dimsum2.jpg) :giggle:

[Sssnake08]

Looks great OCD!

When I did my woodshop, I asked the electrician how many lights he would recommend...he looked at the space and said 5. I said, ok, then install 7. :look: I have to have tons of light when working on detailed things. I like dim light for some things though. :weg:

And I'll bet you Terry appreciates it a million times more!:tease2:

[onecrazydog]

Looks great OCD!

When I did my woodshop, I asked the electrician how many lights he would recommend...he looked at the space and said 5. I said, ok, then install 7. :look: I have to have tons of light when working on detailed things. I like dim light for some things though. :weg:

Thanks Dave!! Yeah, the electrician looked at me sideways when i said I wanted 13 lights in the garage!! There is close to that many plugs too!! Made it a pita for hanging drywall though...

[King Cobra]

And I'll bet you Terry appreciates it a million times more!:tease2:

:spitcopy:

[Joe G]

Thanks Dave!! Yeah, the electrician looked at me sideways when i said I wanted 13 lights in the garage!! There is close to that many plugs too!! Made it a pita for hanging drywall though...

Yeah, my electrician asked me at least a dozen times about all the outlets I had - both indoor and outdoor. I told him I'm paying for them so do what I say. :rofl3:

Same thing for the # of lights I put in the house. I figure I can always put in lower wattage lamps or add a dimmer - hard to add more later, especially for the kitchen where I hate to have shadows!

Never can have too many outlets - or lights.

[onecrazydog]

Never can have too many outlets - or lights.

X Infinity!!

[onecrazydog]

All the brightness in the garage is awesome for working on cars and projects, but way to intense for "entertaining"...

So now there is business mode,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0900.JPG

entertainment mode,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0898.JPG


and afterhours mode,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0885.JPG



:rofl3:

[Joe G]

:weg:




New pics of Amanda? :bunny:

[68fastback]

I think it was the "after hours mode" that made Joe think of Amanda :biggrin:

[Boston Mike]

Nice!

6500K is a good choice too ...similar to mid-day sunlight :wtg:

They also make full-spectrum tubes of similar color temp (maybe a bit warmer). Lots of studies show that people working under full-sectrum lamps are more productive and suffer less depression at work (seriously) because they most closely approximate the spectrum of natural sunlight. Not surprisingly, MEDICINAL plants grow very well under them too -lol. You get a a bit less 'brightness' because some of the energy is going into less visible portions of the visible spectrum (sounds like an oxymoron -lol) but that's because some frequencies have less apparent brightness than others. Anyhow, I've used them in my office and in Jan's craft room. I like th emore natural light quality and in Jan's craft rom th emotivation is more color accuracy (for quiltmaking, etc). Anyhow, just some thoughts/considerations.

Joe probably has more detailed info on this stuff and I'm wondering if linear LED tubes are ready for prime time color-spectrum wise (Joe?) ...would be really nice to have the stability of LEDs in a tube if the color spectrum is right.

Fixed it for you Danny.................

[onecrazydog]

Fixed it for you Danny.................


Rumor has it that, 1000 watt metal halide bulbs work best for the medicinal plants...

[Joe G]

Rumor has it that, 1000 watt metal halide bulbs work best for the medicinal plants...

:shades:

[The Bone]

Your after hours lighting needs some work. Install some :NeedIsaymore:

[onecrazydog]

Your after hours lighting needs some work. Install some :NeedIsaymore:

Some what? You need to say more...

[Tommy Gun]

:lol:

[onecrazydog]

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0997.JPG
http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_0996.JPG

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_1008.JPG

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_1009.JPG

[Joe G]

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/IMG_1008.JPG


:yea1:

[Shlbylvr]

LOVE the speed sign

[68fastback]

:lol: ...me too ...

OCD's Sign Shop!! :banana:

http://stangsunited.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11424&d=1369182880

[onecrazydog]

Moved my work bench between the tool boxes,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1070392.JPG

I also put a shelf up for the stereo,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1070415.JPG

Put the sub under the bench,

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1070411.JPG


Ready for summer!!

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1070417.JPG

http://www.onecrazydog.com/pictures/albums/Garage/P1070416.JPG

[Joe G]

Ready for summer!!

Isn't that still 5 months away for you silly? :cold::canada:

[68fastback]

:lol:

Shop's lookin' good, Stacey!

[onecrazydog]

Isn't that still 5 months away for you silly? :cold::canada:

Advance prepping!!

:woohoo:

[onecrazydog]

:lol:

Shop's lookin' good, Stacey!

:webers:

[Tommy Gun]

Man it must be nice to have a high ceiling in a garage. :nonono:

.

[Joe G]

Man it must be nice to have a high ceiling in a garage. :nonono:

.
It is. :frolic:

[Tommy Gun]

:nonono:

[68fastback]

Man it must be nice to have a high ceiling in a garage. :nonono:

.

You should have had Pedro build yours!

http://stangsunited.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12318&d=1306789047 :giggle:

[Joe G]

:haha:

[onecrazydog]

Man it must be nice to have a high ceiling in a garage. :nonono:

.

My garage at home is only 9' 6"... The office shop is 15'...

[Tommy Gun]

In my first house the ceiling was 6'-11" if I remember correctly, this house it is 7'-3" :nonono:

[Joe G]

In my first house the ceiling was 6'-11" if I remember correctly, this house it is 7'-3" :nonono:
I'd move. :look:

[Boston Mike]

I'd move. :look:

:goodpost:

[Tommy Gun]

Thinking about it. :look:

[Joe G]

Thinking about it. :look:
:bsflag:

[Tommy Gun]

I am.

[Joe G]

I am.

Larger house with a Mega Garage? :woohoo:

[Tommy Gun]

Mega garage w an efficiency loft.

[68fastback]

...and crickets?












:haha:

[Tommy Gun]

They get :gun:

[Joe G]

Mega garage w an efficiency loft.

Better be a big loft, unless you, CP, Jr and Granny are all sharing a room. :wow2:

[Tommy Gun]

Just me, Copilot if she feels like it.

[Joe G]

Just me, Copilot if she feels like it.

:spitcopy:

[onecrazydog]

Mega garage w an efficiency loft.


Cool!!

[Tommy Gun]

:grin:

[Tommy Gun]

:wtg:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/return-of-incandescent-light-bulbs-as-mit-makes-them-more-effici/

[Joe G]

:wtg:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/return-of-incandescent-light-bulbs-as-mit-makes-them-more-effici/

:groan:

So much inaccurate info in that article. :nonono:

[68fastback]

The technology is so exciting we can write a whole article and not even tell you what it actually is :lol:

[Joe G]

The technology is so exciting we can write a whole article and not even tell you what it actually is :lol:

:ssshhh: it's a secret.

[Tommy Gun]

The technology is so exciting we can write a whole article and not even tell you what it actually is :lol:


That's what I thought, but that's how Joe sounds when he explains lighting to me. :haha:

[68fastback]

:spitcopy:

[Tommy Gun]

:grin:

[Alloy Dave]

JoeGie, I need an LED plan for my house. :look: slowly over time we want to upgrade to LEDs. We have many types...incandescent standards, some oddball incandescents in some fixtures, and lots of PAR? 30 can lights, and some flourescents mainly under counter lighting, closet lights, and in my woodshop.

I see LEDs on sale all the time, but would like to know about color, wattage, etc. I like things BRIGHT.

[Joe G]

JoeGie, I need an LED plan for my house. :look: slowly over time we want to upgrade to LEDs. We have many types...incandescent standards, some oddball incandescents in some fixtures, and lots of PAR? 30 can lights, and some flourescents mainly under counter lighting, closet lights, and in my woodshop.

I see LEDs on sale all the time, but would like to know about color, wattage, etc. I like things BRIGHT.

I'm guessing if you invite me over some time.... maybe for a football game or something :innocent:.... I'd probably bring over some samples so you could see what you may like or not like.


Just guessing.

:look2:



:idea:

[Alloy Dave]

I'm guessing if you invite me over some time.... maybe for a football game or something :innocent:.... I'd probably bring over some samples so you could see what you may like or not like.


Just guessing.

:look2:



:idea:
.:but:I don't have any donuts

I'll look at the NFL schedule....

[Joe G]

.:but:I don't have any donuts


:yikes:

Offer rescinded. :bigboss:

[68fastback]

:rofl3:

[Tommy Gun]

JoeGie, I need an LED plan for my house. :look: slowly over time we want to upgrade to LEDs. We have many types...incandescent standards, some oddball incandescents in some fixtures, and lots of PAR? 30 can lights, and some flourescents mainly under counter lighting, closet lights, and in my woodshop.

I see LEDs on sale all the time, but would like to know about color, wattage, etc. I like things BRIGHT.


Good luck, been asking for suggestions for years.

I think he only does jobs that include food and sports bonuses, so better have some game tics and lots of donuts.

[Joe G]

Good luck, been asking for suggestions for years.

I think he only does jobs that include food and sports bonuses, so better have some game tics and lots of donuts.

:goodpost: :tiphat2:

[Tommy Gun]

:look:

[68fastback]

GE LED Lamp Solutions (http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/apac/images/LED%20Lamp_Solutions_Spectrum_Catalogue_EN_tcm281-25051.pdf) :shades:

[Joe G]

GE LED Lamp Solutions (http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/apac/images/LED%20Lamp_Solutions_Spectrum_Catalogue_EN_tcm281-25051.pdf) :shades:

Hopefully not. That's for the Asia Pacific markets! :yikes:

[68fastback]

Hopefully not. That's for the Asia Pacific markets! :yikes:


Ooops :giggle:

[Tommy Gun]

Hopefully not. That's for the Asia Pacific markets! :yikes:


:racist:

[Joe G]

:racist:

:haha:

[arhenry10]

I've been using T8 Led tube and haven't compared it with fluorescent tube fixture yet.

[Tommy Gun]

I've upgraded my garage fluorescents to LED and they made a huge difference.

[Joe G]

I've upgraded my garage fluorescents to LED and they made a huge difference.

All of them? :popcorn:

[68fastback]

Did you change the fixtures or just the bulbs? Which did you use? :waiting:

[Joe G]

Did you change the fixtures or just the bulbs? Which did you use? :waiting:

Rumor is that Reitzel Automotive was given some samples to try. :look:

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/na/images/LEDL016-GE-LED-Tubes-Type-C-2-4ft-Sell-Sheet_tcm201-99393.pdf

[Tommy Gun]

Rumor is that Reitzel Automotive was given some samples to try. :look:

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/na/images/LEDL016-GE-LED-Tubes-Type-C-2-4ft-Sell-Sheet_tcm201-99393.pdf


Yeah, I think I used those. :look:

Replaced ballast thingamabobs and rewired and added bulbs.

I have pics somewhere :look:

[68fastback]

Ah, yes, Reitzel Automotive!

Are those "remote drivers" the thingmabobs that replace the ballast?

Yeah, pics when you can! :banana: :biggrin:

[Joe G]

Are those "remote drivers" the thingmabobs that replace the ballast?


:yes:

[68fastback]

Ah, ok ...so probably not worth retrofitting $20 shoplights vs buying new native-LED fixtures?

[Tommy Gun]

Ah, ok ...so probably not worth retrofitting $20 shoplights vs buying new native-LED fixtures?


I retrofitted my $20 shop lights, they are freaking awesome now!


Couldn't find a good LED , bright and reasonably priced unit.


Besides a great friend hooked me up. :wtg:

[Shelby-Don]

Joe great ?

[68fastback]

Oh, ok ...an easy swap?

...which part numbers did you get? :shades:

[Tommy Gun]

Give me a little bit and I'll look for my pics. Trying to remember how far back they may be...thinking Jan/Feb maybe lol

[Tommy Gun]

Joe great ?


Who said Joe?

[Joe G]

Joe great ?

:hide:

[Joe G]

Who said Joe?

:kickrock:

[Tommy Gun]

#ThrownUnderBus

[Tommy Gun]

If I could budge you...

[Tommy Gun]

#ItsFunnyBecauseHesFat



:haha:

[Tommy Gun]

:hey2:

[Tommy Gun]

:oops:

[Tommy Gun]

#ItsFunnyBecauseHesFat



:haha:



Isn't that a quote from the Hangover movie?

[Tommy Gun]

Isn't that a quote from the Hangover movie?


Why yes it is. :uwelcome:

[Tommy Gun]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fee9zb-YCTA



https://youtu.be/fee9zb-YCTA

[68fastback]

:doh:

[Tommy Gun]

He's not here, move on...

[Tommy Gun]

20297

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20299

20300

20301

20302

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[Tommy Gun]

20303

20304

20305

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20307

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[Tommy Gun]

That really explains it all. :wtg:









Second great posts of the week. :uwelcome:

.

[Joe G]

I guess Reitzel Automotive is off the free sample program. :nonono:

[68fastback]

That really explains it all. :wtg:









Second great posts of the week. :uwelcome:

.

...yup that explains it all -- thanks Bill. :tiphat2:

...replace ballast with the thingamabob, hook up the wires, insert LED tubes, plug it in :wtg:

...are they about as bright (or brighter) as the standard fluorescent tubes?

[Tommy Gun]

...yup that explains it all -- thanks Bill. :tiphat2:

...replace ballast with the thingamabob, hook up the wires, insert LED tubes, plug it in :wtg:

...are they about as bright (or brighter) as the standard fluorescent tubes?


Oh heck no! They are crazy bright compared to fluorescents!

[Tommy Gun]

I guess Reitzel Automotive is off the free sample program. :nonono:


:hey2:

[The Bone]

I guess Hansen 68 Mustang Automotive missed out again, :(
:rofl:

[Joe G]

Oh heck no! They are crazy bright compared to fluorescents!

There are multiple wattages/lumen packages available.

Some like the output of their existing old fluorescents, so they want to maximize energy savings. Some need MORE light, so we can give them about 50% more without adding new fixtures - and still save some energy.

LED is very tunable - figure out how much light is needed, then choose a product that will achieve that.

[Joe G]

I guess Hansen 68 Mustang Automotive missed out again, :(
:rofl:

You tell me what you need, and I'm sure I can divert the next sample to you.

Reitzel Autos is :banned:

[68fastback]

Oh heck no! They are crazy bright compared to fluorescents!

Awesome!! That's exactly what I want in the workshop :woohoo:

[onecrazydog]

I need 32 samples for my garage... 6500K...

[Tommy Gun]

There are multiple wattages/lumen packages available.

Some like the output of their existing old fluorescents, so they want to maximize energy savings. Some need MORE light, so we can give them about 50% more without adding new fixtures - and still save some energy.

LED is very tunable - figure out how much light is needed, then choose a product that will achieve that.


Why would someone replace fluorescent with something the same brightness?

[Tommy Gun]

I need 32 samples for my garage... 6500K...


:ohsnap:

[Tommy Gun]

You tell me what you need, and I'm sure I can divert the next sample to you.

Reitzel Autos is :banned:



:hey2:

[68fastback]

Why would someone replace fluorescent with something the same brightness?

Joe answered that: more energy savings (= less :spend:) ...can really add up if a lot of fixtures

I like the more-light ...a-bit-less-energy is just a bonus.

[Tommy Gun]

Must have missed that, I have Joe on ignore since he won't do sample business with me. :look:

[68fastback]

:rofl3:

[Joe G]

I need 32 samples for my garage... 6500K...

6500k sucks. I don't like anything over 5000k which is crisp white. 6500k is too blue. It also makes warm color like SLOW RED look even worse than they are. :giggle:

[Joe G]

Joe answered that: more energy savings (= less :spend:) ...can really add up if a lot of fixtures

I like the more-light ...a-bit-less-energy is just a bonus.

:goodpost:

[Joe G]

Awesome!! That's exactly what I want in the workshop :woohoo:

:idea:

[Tommy Gun]

6500k sucks. I don't like anything over 5000k which is crisp white. 6500k is too blue. It also makes warm color like SLOW RED look even worse than they are. :giggle:



So it would be purple? :popcorn:

[Shelby-Don]

Pink !

[68fastback]

:idea:

Maybe I'll wait then :giggle:

I priced the drivers and tubes:
drivers: major websites are $24-32/ea -- found a guy on ebay with 9 of them for $16 each (5000K)
tubes (this is bizarre): $24-350/ea (wtf?) ...there are two offers on ebay for $200 and $350/ea :rofl: ...and one seller at $24/ea

Still pricey at $80/2-tube fixture (with shipping).
Maybe I'll wait until another fluorescent tube fails -lol

[Joe G]

Maybe I'll wait then :giggle:

I priced the drivers and tubes:
drivers: major websites are $24-32/ea -- found a guy on ebay with 9 of them for $16 each (5000K)
tubes (this is bizarre): $24-350/ea (wtf?) ...there are two offers on ebay for $200 and $350/ea :rofl: ...and one seller at $24/ea

Still pricey at $80/2-tube fixture (with shipping).
Maybe I'll wait until another fluorescent tube fails -lol


How many might be needed? :innocent:

[onecrazydog]

6500k sucks. I don't like anything over 5000k which is crisp white. 6500k is too blue. It also makes warm color like SLOW RED look even worse than they are. :giggle:


Ok, 5000K sounds good!!

[68fastback]

How many might be needed? :innocent:

Well, a surprise ...glad I checked...

One is a T8 but the other three are T12s ...I took one T12 apart (want to put it in garage but haven't yet) but there's no visible ballast ...probably hidden in one (or both) end caps where the sockets are. I removed an end-cap and tried to open it but it wouldn't cooperate. Have you seen ones like that before, Joe? Do T8 tubes have same pin spacing as T12s?

So, only one fixture is T8 but I could pick-up three more if the T12s are not easily convertible since they're almost 18 years old now :innocent:

[Joe G]

Well, a surprise ...glad I checked...

One is a T8 but the other three are T12s ...I took one T12 apart (want to put it in garage but haven't yet) but there's no visible ballast ...probably hidden in one (or both) end caps where the sockets are. I removed an end-cap and tried to open it but it wouldn't cooperate. Have you seen ones like that before, Joe? Do T8 tubes have same pin spacing as T12s?

So, only one fixture is T8 but I could pick-up three more if the T12s are not easily convertible since they're almost 18 years old now :innocent:

T12 and T8 have the same pin spacing.

Your T12's sound like the OLD pre-heat ones - does it have a starter you have to push?

[68fastback]

T12 and T8 have the same pin spacing.

Your T12's sound like the OLD pre-heat ones - does it have a starter you have to push?

No, I just flip the switch at the wall.
The reflector bottom and fixture top are the same piece of metal with just a thin metal U-strip on the underside hiding the two wires (I removed it to check) that run from one cap to the other, no other compartment for a ballast.
Boxes labelled (I saved them -lol): GE Shop Light, Stock 5001-L 0-33742-50012-5 thermally protected. They came fully assembled with the T-12s.

[Joe G]

Oh.


GE sux.


:giggle:

[68fastback]

:spitcopy: :yes:


Joe, ballast IS in BOTH end-caps -- one for each tube, it seems. I was able to defeat the locked 'tabs' on the cap -- pics below. It's a GE fixture but the end-caps (the only electronic parts) are made by US Fluorescent.

So, if I'm reading things right, nothing would seem to prevent the caps from being rewired for T8s with the driver mounted on top of the fixture ...just a bit more difficult to gut & upfit and drill some holes for mounting and a UL grommet for the wires from the driver going though the metal.

203252032620327

---

Bill, in your pics I notice the white wires are clipped at each socket on one end since no starter circuit for LEDs. When the LED tubes are installed in the fixture does it matter which way the LED tubes go in the fixture? I suspect from the diagram on the driver that it does.

Any chance you still have the installation instructions and can email me a copy?

[edit:] Found installation guide online :banana:

[The Bone]

Will get back to you Joe when I get home.

[Tommy Gun]

Maybe I'll wait then :giggle:

I priced the drivers and tubes:
drivers: major websites are $24-32/ea -- found a guy on ebay with 9 of them for $16 each (5000K)
tubes (this is bizarre): $24-350/ea (wtf?) ...there are two offers on ebay for $200 and $350/ea :rofl: ...and one seller at $24/ea

Still pricey at $80/2-tube fixture (with shipping).
Maybe I'll wait until another fluorescent tube fails -lol


I have a box full of fluorescent tubes if you want them, need an address. :look:

.

[Tommy Gun]

:spitcopy: :yes:


Joe, ballast IS in BOTH end-caps -- one for each tube, it seems. I was able to defeat the locked 'tabs' on the cap -- pics below. It's a GE fixture but the end-caps (the only electronic parts) are made by US Fluorescent.

So, if I'm reading things right, nothing would seem to prevent the caps from being rewired for T8s with the driver mounted on top of the fixture ...just a bit more difficult to gut & upfit and drill some holes for mounting and a UL grommet for the wires from the driver going though the metal.

203252032620327

---

Bill, in your pics I notice the white wires are clipped at each socket on one end since no starter circuit for LEDs. When the LED tubes are installed in the fixture does it matter which way the LED tubes go in the fixture? I suspect from the diagram on the driver that it does.

Any chance you still have the installation instructions and can email me a copy?

[edit:] Found installation guide online :banana:



:nonono:

[Joe G]

Hmmm.... that's a weird setup. Can't say I've seen any commercial or industrial customers with that setup. Must be a economy "homeowner" type setup.

Can't see why we couldn't just clip the existing ballasts and rewire with the new LED driver. Issue is where to mount it?

[68fastback]

Hmmm.... that's a weird setup. Can't say I've seen any commercial or industrial customers with that setup. Must be a economy "homeowner" type setup.

Can't see why we couldn't just clip the existing ballasts and rewire with the new LED driver. Issue is where to mount it?

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. There may be enough room to mount it in the 'normal' ballast location (maybe next to the end cap with the power cord) since the T8 LED tubes are smaller in diameter than the T12s it will give more room. The endcaps are enclosed and will be empty after the existing ballast is removed, so all connections could be done inside them. They're plastic so easy to pass wires through to driver. Otherwise could mount driver on top of fixture and pass wires through rubber grommets or UL strain-reliefs I have.

[Tommy Gun]

Hmmm.... that's a weird setup. Can't say I've seen any commercial or industrial customers with that setup. Must be a economy "homeowner" type setup.

Can't see why we couldn't just clip the existing ballasts and rewire with the new LED driver. Issue is where to mount it?


One of mine was like that, I cut out the ballast and the chip board and just rewired.

That is the one that I mounted the LED driver "on top" of the light fixture. :rofl3:

[Tommy Gun]

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. There may be enough room to mount it in the 'normal' ballast location (maybe next to the end cap with the power cord) since the T8 LED tubes are smaller in diameter than the T12s it will give more room. The endcaps are enclosed and will be empty after the existing ballast is removed, so all connections could be done inside them. They're plastic so easy to pass wires through to driver. Otherwise could mount driver on top of fixture and pass wires through rubber grommets or UL strain-reliefs I have.


Yep, on top. :look:

[68fastback]

One of mine was like that, I cut out the ballast and the chip board and just rewired.

That is the one that I mounted the LED driver "on top" of the light fixture. :rofl3:


Yep, on top. :look:

:wtg: :tiphat2:

[Joe G]

One of mine was like that, I cut out the ballast and the chip board and just rewired.

That is the one that I mounted the LED driver "on top" of the light fixture. :rofl3:

Oh yeah. :doh:

I forgot you had a weird one too.



On top is good. :wtg:

[68fastback]

Oh yeah. :doh:

I forgot TG's a weird one.



On top is good. :wtg:

Fixed :haha: :hiding:

[Joe G]

Fixed :haha: :hiding:

:spitcopy:

:logical:

[Tommy Gun]

:nonono:

[68fastback]

:hug: ;-)

Be good or I'll send Art down to give you noogies :biggrin:

[Tommy Gun]

:ohsnap:

[Joe G]

:hug: ;-)

Be good or I'll send Art down to talk non-stop for 2 days straight about how stupid everyone is :biggrin:

:ohsnap2:





:haha:

[68fastback]

:spitcopy:

[Tommy Gun]

Joes been holding back on info to us. :nonono:

Seems we're gonna die from LED lighting. :nonono:



https://www.ama-assn.org/ama-adopts-guidance-reduce-harm-high-intensity-street-lights

.

[Highwayman]

Light Pollution, we now have light added to the list of human created pollution :nonono:

[Joe G]

Light Pollution, we now have light added to the list of human created pollution :nonono:

:yes: Poorly implemented lighting retrofits are causing more problems than they're solving in many cases.

Everyone wants "cheap and simple" lighting upgrades - that usually means the products chosen may save energy and produce a good amount of light, but they don't "control" it well (barfing light everywhere vs. keeping it where you want it and away from where you don't). This means while streets are brighter, they usually also have a lot of light trespass into surrounding areas (like the front window of your house :rant:) where people don't want it.

They also tend to use very "cool" color temp LED's because they're much more efficient vs. the "warm" colors - ie: if a decision is only made on best efficacy, then the super "blue-ish" ones win out. Most areas have that very yellow sodium lighting, which is easier on the eyes, especially in neighborhoods.

It's a problem that won't get better unless the people making the decisions actually know how to evaluate competitive proposals and choose the BEST one, vs. the cheapest one or the one with the best "payback".

[Joe G]

Joes been holding back on info to us. :nonono:

Seems we're gonna die from LED lighting. :nonono:



https://www.ama-assn.org/ama-adopts-guidance-reduce-harm-high-intensity-street-lights

.


:oops: :sorry: about that.

:tiptoe: :idea:

[Alloy Dave]

Light Pollution, we now have light added to the list of human created pollution :nonono:
If people want no pollution, they can move to the moon. Sure you'll get hit by a meteor every few million years, and there's no air to breathe...but other than that it's a nice place.

[Alloy Dave]

:yes: Poorly implemented lighting retrofits are causing more problems than they're solving in many cases.

Everyone wants "cheap and simple" lighting upgrades - that usually means the products chosen may save energy and produce a good amount of light, but they don't "control" it well (barfing light everywhere vs. keeping it where you want it and away from where you don't). This means while streets are brighter, they usually also have a lot of light trespass into surrounding areas (like the front window of your house :rant:) where people don't want it.

They also tend to use very "cool" color temp LED's because they're much more efficient vs. the "warm" colors - ie: if a decision is only made on best efficacy, then the super "blue-ish" ones win out. Most areas have that very yellow sodium lighting, which is easier on the eyes, especially in neighborhoods.

It's a problem that won't get better unless the people making the decisions actually know how to evaluate competitive proposals and choose the BEST one, vs. the cheapest one or the one with the best "payback".
I saw an article on LED "shop" light tubes. THey said the LEDs are not all around the bulb, only on about 2/3 of it, so you don't "waste" light by shining it up and having it reflected off the fixture.

Please provide your thoughts on this. :popcorn:

[Joe G]

I saw an article on LED "shop" light tubes. THey said the LEDs are not all around the bulb, only on about 2/3 of it, so you don't "waste" light by shining it up and having it reflected off the fixture.

Please provide your thoughts on this. :popcorn:

:iagree:

Most of the LED tubes have a 200-300 degree beam spread, while old fluorescent lamps obviously have a 360* spread.

Main reason is that you need a place inside the tube to mount the strip of LED's, and those LED's need a heat sink that pulls the heat away from them. That's why you'll see either a piece of aluminum along the spine (older versions) or a white strip that doesn't illuminate.

Either way, for most shop lights they have those reflectors on the fixture to try to capture/re-direct/reflect the light from the old fluorescents that go "up" into the fixture and try to get it down onto the area you want to illuminate. The LED tubes don't need the reflectors to do that - they directly illuminate the space below, which means less wasted light.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/content/leds/en/articles/print/volume-12/issue-6/features/indoor-lighting/hands-on-testing-of-popular-led-t8-lamps-and-linear-fixtures/_jcr_content/leftcolumn/article/thumbnailimage.img.jpg

[68fastback]

Light pollution has also been a hot button with astronomers for the last 15-20 years -- without dark skies astronomical 'seeing' (that's what it's called) is severely impaired ...this is another reason many communities are finally adopting the exclusive use of street, commercial and residential exterior lighting fixtures that only fire downward. Some communities are actually getting certified by a volunteer non-profit astronomy group (International Dark Sky Association (http://www.darksky.org/)) who will advise and, more recently, evaluate a communities outdoor lighting and certify those communities meeting certain levels. Those communities are actually now attracting avid astronomy buffs as both visitors and new residents.

The blue light thing is totally true -- this statement is the crux of it: "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." We have evolved (as have many other species) to be awakened naturally by blue (high color temp) light -- the color of daybreak (before the sun rises above the horizon) is intensely blue (very high color temp).

People who leave their LED-screen computers on at night with time displayed with an alarm clock app are having sleep issues. (I've read millions of people do that -- I guess they don't like regular clock radios -lol) and many computers now have an applet that lets you select various degrees of blue-light filtering (both of ours do) so when using before bedtime you aren't 'wired' by the blue light inherent in white LED back-lit screens. If your computer doesn't have that feature, I've read WIN-10 will let you apply a blue filter (like for the alarm clock function I mentioned) such that it will automatically gradually go 'warm' low color temp at night and gradually go neutral/bluer (high color temp) during the day -- you can select what your waking and sleeping times are it will curve the blue filtering around those times.

Since our laptops have blue light filtering feature I just keep it on a low blue filtering setting all the time and turn it higher when on the computer late at night ...before turning-in. Occasionally I'll turn the filter off all together during the day if doing critical color work in Photoshop (or sitting outside in daylight) but it's amazing how your eyes/brain adjust to the [low level of] blue filtering such that you can still make critical color decisions with it turned on. Besides, it's good eye-strain protection -- we are just not designed to deal with high color temps (blue) for long periods of time without it messing with our eyes and circadian rhythm ...like sleep patterns.

[68fastback]

:iagree:

Most of the LED tubes have a 200-300 degree beam spread, while old fluorescent lamps obviously have a 360* spread.

Main reason is that you need a place inside the tube to mount the strip of LED's, and those LED's need a heat sink that pulls the heat away from them. That's why you'll see either a piece of aluminum along the spine (older versions) or a white strip that doesn't illuminate.

Either way, for most shop lights they have those reflectors on the fixture to try to capture/re-direct/reflect the light from the old fluorescents that go "up" into the fixture and try to get it down onto the area you want to illuminate. The LED tubes don't need the reflectors to do that - they directly illuminate the space below, which means less wasted light.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/content/leds/en/articles/print/volume-12/issue-6/features/indoor-lighting/hands-on-testing-of-popular-led-t8-lamps-and-linear-fixtures/_jcr_content/leftcolumn/article/thumbnailimage.img.jpg

Cool to see how that's implemented! :tiphat2:

[Highwayman]

Light pollution has also been a hot button with astronomers for the last 15-20 years -- without dark skies astronomical 'seeing' (that's what it's called) is severely impaired ...this is another reason many communities are finally adopting the exclusive use of street, commercial and residential exterior lighting fixtures that only fire downward. Some communities are actually getting certified by a volunteer non-profit astronomy group (International Dark Sky Association (http://www.darksky.org/)) who will advise and, more recently, evaluate a communities outdoor lighting and certify those communities meeting certain levels. Those communities are actually now attracting avid astronomy buffs as both visitors and new residents.

When exactly are you learning these things??? :toilet:

[Joe G]

Cool to see how that's implemented! :tiphat2:

21204

[Alloy Dave]

:iagree:

Most of the LED tubes have a 200-300 degree beam spread, while old fluorescent lamps obviously have a 360* spread.

Main reason is that you need a place inside the tube to mount the strip of LED's, and those LED's need a heat sink that pulls the heat away from them. That's why you'll see either a piece of aluminum along the spine (older versions) or a white strip that doesn't illuminate.

Either way, for most shop lights they have those reflectors on the fixture to try to capture/re-direct/reflect the light from the old fluorescents that go "up" into the fixture and try to get it down onto the area you want to illuminate. The LED tubes don't need the reflectors to do that - they directly illuminate the space below, which means less wasted light.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/content/leds/en/articles/print/volume-12/issue-6/features/indoor-lighting/hands-on-testing-of-popular-led-t8-lamps-and-linear-fixtures/_jcr_content/leftcolumn/article/thumbnailimage.img.jpgI prefer a more reliable lighting in my shop.

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[Alloy Dave]

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[Joe G]

I prefer a more reliable lighting in my shop.

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Should be good with all that saw dust in the air. :wtg:

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When exactly are you learning these things??? :toilet:

:lol: ...yes there too :rofl3: ...I've been an avid science reader since my 20s ...that's like 800-900 years :haha:

[68fastback]

I prefer a more reliable lighting in my shop.




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I have a couple dozen antique oil lamps ...most are in storage but we keep several for when power goes out and not worth messing with the gen-set for 1-2 hour outage.

One of my favorites is the Lincoln Drape which uses the largest round Aladdin (patented) burner ...easily equivalent to a 75w lamp!

http://stangsunited.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21210&d=1505956765

[Alloy Dave]

You must never move, because it would be impossible to not break that thing during moving.

[68fastback]

You must never move, because it would be impossible to not break that thing during moving.

Moved them from the prior house ...easy peasy! The chimneys are tempered glass -- a little fragile but tougher than a wineglass. Moved them all wrapped-up on one HUGE box.

[Alloy Dave]

20297

20298

20299

20300

20301

20302

.
Thinking about doing this in my woodshop. A few questions.

1) Do I have to buy those new "drivers" you installed?
2) Can I get them at a big box store or specialty?
3) Will my current T12 fixtures take T8 LED bulbs? If not, what do I do?
4) Is changing the ballast/driver easier/cheaper than just buying new fixtures?

[Tommy Gun]

Need the drivers and bulbs.

Cheaper than new fixtures.

[Highwayman]

I would like to do the same thing in my garage. Where do we but these parts and roughly how much does it cost per fixture?

[Alloy Dave]

:waiting:

[Tommy Gun]

I would like to do the same thing in my garage. Where do we but these parts and roughly how much does it cost per fixture?


I got my parts through a lighting guru, perhaps he can chime in on parts needed.

[Joe G]

I got my parts through a lighting guru, perhaps he can chime in on parts needed.

Stand by... :waiting2:

[Shelby-Don]

Here's the longest lasting light bulb has been on since 1901, Livermore, CA fire station

21641

[68fastback]

Amazing how long a 220v bulb will last when run at 110v :shades:

[Alloy Dave]

I bought a new LED shop lamp fixture today. Cost $46. But it has a "lens cover" and the LEDs...no bulbs. I'm going to "test" it compared to my current lights. If I try to retrofit mine, I'll not only need new ballasts, but also bulbs and the tube protectors...I think the cost would be close to the cost of a new fixture. The one I bought is 4100k...not sure if that's the "color" I want but we'll see.

[Tommy Gun]

:waiting2:

[Alloy Dave]

:waiting:

[Alloy Dave]

:hurry:

[Alloy Dave]

:hurryup:

[Alloy Dave]

:fail:

:nonono:

[Tommy Gun]

Try back in February.

[Joe G]

Here's the longest lasting light bulb has been on since 1901, Livermore, CA fire station

21641

Art installed it new when he retired. :lol:

[68fastback]

:spitcopy:

:hiding:

:lol:

[Tommy Gun]

:ohsnap:

[onecrazydog]

I like the florescent lighting I have in the garage... 9 fixtures with 36 of those skinny 4' bulbs...