should have saved my money...

[eclipseb2k2]

Like I have said before:

:new2:me


I installed a water meth kit in my '08 GT500....... like the title says I should have saved the money. It gave me about 2-3 rwhp and did not noticably drop engine temp. Sort of a bust, and a PITA to install. I wanted to share my experiance with any one considering it or see if anyone wants to trade for a water methkit......... J/K

[Birdman]

Like I have said before:

:new2:me


I installed a water meth kit in my '08 GT500....... like the title says I should have saved the money. It gave me about 2-3 rwhp and did not noticably drop engine temp. Sort of a bust, and a PITA to install. I wanted to share my experiance with any one considering it or see if anyone wants to trade for a water methkit......... J/K
Where did you install the spray nozzle? Any pics of the install?

[blackshelby]

Like I have said before:

:new2:me


I installed a water meth kit in my '08 GT500....... like the title says I should have saved the money. It gave me about 2-3 rwhp and did not noticeably drop engine temp. Sort of a bust, and a PITA to install. I wanted to share my experience with any one considering it or see if anyone wants to trade for a water methkit......... J/K


Water meth by-self will not yield any HP.
What it does do will up the octane rating of the fuel allowing you to run more boost or more timing where the HP will come from when using that setup.
Also just spraying it in without adjusting the tune will fatting up the A/F . It is a Good safety cushion if just spraying in without upping the boost or the timing. Will also prevent HP fade from cylinder temp raising. Actual cylinder temps not to be confused with IAT2's Meth cools down the cylinder tremendously which will prevent detonation

[Orf]

Water meth by-self will not yield any HP.
What it does do will up the octane rating of the fuel allowing you to run more boost or more timing where the HP will come from when using that setup.
Also just spraying it in without adjusting the tune will fatting up the A/F . It is a Good safety cushion if just spraying in without upping the boost or the timing. Will also prevent HP fade from cylinder temp raising. Actual cylinder temps not to be confused with IAT2's Meth cools down the cylinder tremendously which will prevent detonation


I though Meth Heads were something completely different...

:eyesinmailbox:

[Gr8snkbite]

there was much speculation when it first came out that it didnt really perform as advertised....

[Alloy Dave]

Water meth by-self will not yield any HP.
What it does do will up the octane rating of the fuel allowing you to run more boost or more timing where the HP will come from when using that setup.
Also just spraying it in without adjusting the tune will fatting up the A/F . It is a Good safety cushion if just spraying in without upping the boost or the timing. Will also prevent HP fade from cylinder temp raising. Actual cylinder temps not to be confused with IAT2's Meth cools down the cylinder tremendously which will prevent detonation
Interesting, thanks...this is a topic I know very little about. I'm sure there's some interesting chemistry going on in the chamber. I wonder if "latent heat of vaporization" comes into play.

[Little Debbie]

Dave, you got me interested...found this:

How Water/Methanol Injection Works

Reduce Inlet Air Charge Temperatures
Water/methanol injection helps to reduce inlet air charge temperatures and suppress detonation. A highly atomized mist of water/methanol mix is injected into the inlet airstream where it immediately starts to evaporate. The air charge temperature is reduced through evaporative cooling as the fluid changes states and goes from a liquid to a vapor. This “liquid intercooling” effect can reduce intake air temperatures by as much as 100°F or more! A cooler, denser air charge delivers more oxygen that allows for more fuel to be burned and more horsepower to be made. A cooler air charge also helps increase the knock threshold by reducing the chance of pre-ignition and detonation.

Reduce Knock
Combined, water and methanol can significantly increase your effective anti-knock index allowing for higher boost pressures and more ignition timing advance. Water absorbs heat which allows it to reduce excessive combustion temperatures and slow down the combustion rate. By slowing and controlling the combustion rate the chance of detonation occurring is greatly reduced. Methanol is a cool burning, high anti-knock rated fuel that also helps to cool and control combustion.

Reduce Carbon Deposits
Water/methanol injection will reduce carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber and in the intake manifold. Many engines use Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) for emissions control which can lead to massive carbon build up inside the air intake. Water/methanol injection will help to eliminate this build up and promote better airflow for better engine efficiency. Reducing carbon build up in the combustion chamber helps to reduce “hot spots” that can cause unwanted pre-ignition and detonation. In some instances, water/methanol injection can also slightly increase fuel economy.


So, yes, you are correct; it does come into play. Apparently the O and H2 from the H2O evaporation add O2 which "adds fuel to the fire" for more HP, and the H will combine and then combust with any carbon deposits.

[eclipseb2k2]

Water meth by-self will not yield any HP.
What it does do will up the octane rating of the fuel allowing you to run more boost or more timing where the HP will come from when using that setup.
Also just spraying it in without adjusting the tune will fatting up the A/F . It is a Good safety cushion if just spraying in without upping the boost or the timing. Will also prevent HP fade from cylinder temp raising. Actual cylinder temps not to be confused with IAT2's Meth cools down the cylinder tremendously which will prevent detonation

I had it tuned for the water meth, they called tech support at Snow and they even called Dan at pro-dyno just to see if maybe they were they were missing something. In the end it just didn't make the power they said it would. I am going to play with it this weekend and see if it helps gas milage. is there a way I can tell if it is actually cooling the cylinder?

[blackshelby]

I had it tuned for the water meth, they called tech support at Snow and they even called Dan at pro-dyno just to see if maybe they were they were missing something. In the end it just didn't make the power they said it would. I am going to play with it this weekend and see if it helps gas milage. is there a way I can tell if it is actually cooling the cylinder?

Did they add timing?
What A/f did they tune it to?
I found when using it the a/f needs should be around 12.5 depending on jet size if running two jets thats the fattest I would run and you need to add at least 3-5 degrees of timing.

Hard to actually measure the cooling in the cylinder itself.
Cooler temps can be measured at the cylinder head and engine coolant temps should drop some.
You can read spark plugs(would need to start with new ones)
Just that you can add the timing and keep detonation away is one result from the cooler cylinder temps.(of course the meth also ups the octane rating which helps with detonation

[blackshelby]

Dave, you got me interested...found this:

How Water/Methanol Injection Works

Reduce Inlet Air Charge Temperatures
Water/methanol injection helps to reduce inlet air charge temperatures and suppress detonation. A highly atomized mist of water/methanol mix is injected into the inlet airstream where it immediately starts to evaporate. The air charge temperature is reduced through evaporative cooling as the fluid changes states and goes from a liquid to a vapor. This “liquid intercooling” effect can reduce intake air temperatures by as much as 100°F or more! A cooler, denser air charge delivers more oxygen that allows for more fuel to be burned and more horsepower to be made. A cooler air charge also helps increase the knock threshold by reducing the chance of pre-ignition and detonation.

Reduce Knock
Combined, water and methanol can significantly increase your effective anti-knock index allowing for higher boost pressures and more ignition timing advance. Water absorbs heat which allows it to reduce excessive combustion temperatures and slow down the combustion rate. By slowing and controlling the combustion rate the chance of detonation occurring is greatly reduced. Methanol is a cool burning, high anti-knock rated fuel that also helps to cool and control combustion.

Reduce Carbon Deposits
Water/methanol injection will reduce carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber and in the intake manifold. Many engines use Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) for emissions control which can lead to massive carbon build up inside the air intake. Water/methanol injection will help to eliminate this build up and promote better airflow for better engine efficiency. Reducing carbon build up in the combustion chamber helps to reduce “hot spots” that can cause unwanted pre-ignition and detonation. In some instances, water/methanol injection can also slightly increase fuel economy.


So, yes, you are correct; it does come into play. Apparently the O and H2 from the H2O evaporation add O2 which "adds fuel to the fire" for more HP, and the H will combine and then combust with any carbon deposits.


Yup good info about it.

Blowers and alcohol/meth are a prefect match.

HP will be seen yes if its tuned otherwise by just adding the system without tuning will just richen the A/F.(netting in about a zero gain) Yes safety will be added but not much HP. The only way to really see a HP gain with these kits is to tune for it.

Now this is what I don't like for a street car,tuning aggressively for an add on. Never want to be caught running the car and the kit goes empty.:mop2:But for a race car absolutely.
For a street car is a great safety feature without tuning for the extra HP(just adding it to your original setup) specially if you are running high boost

They definitely work

[badboy500]

Nice read.:)

[Little Debbie]

What I am gathering from this is that the A/F ratio should be increased, is this correct? As temperature increases, the rate of formation of CO2 and H2O should increase within the intake, allowing for more O2 to be readily available; without sufficient air intake, or sufficient fuel intake, the end result will not occur. Either one or the other is off, or both. The engine temperature increasing over time is a given, regardless. But, shouldn't the MAF sensor pick this up (and A/F ratio problem) and be read on IATs? And wouldn't the O2 sensor compensate for this? Could there be a problem with the catalytic converter?

[Little Debbie]

I also found this:

Conditions that affect operation

VAF sensors are mechanical in nature. Their measuring element (wiper contact, pivot bushings and sensor resistors) get worn out over time. A binding air flap door is also a major problem with these sensors. The air flap mechanism is extremely precise and does not tolerate any misalignments. Always make sure that the air flap can travel freely all the way to its full open position. A broken air duct pipe will also render the VAF useless, since most of the air will be bypassed and enter though the broken duct hole. A thorough air duct check is always a good idea. The resistors also tend to wear out over time, sending the wrong voltage signal to the ECM. This will certainly throw off the air-fuel ratio.
The air temperature sensor and the fuel pump switch are the other reasons for VAF failures. This fuel pump switch activates the fuel pump relay and its contacts also wear down over time, causing a no start-no no-fuel pressure condition. A simple continuity test will quickly reveal a bad fuel pump switch. The air temperature sensor also follows the same electrical characteristics of a normal IAT sensor and the same ohms to temperature tables could be used for diagnostics.
Hot Wire MAF sensors are very prone to sensing wire element contamination. A condition referred to by many technicians as “growing hairs” happens when debris, dirt from cheap air filters and outside air stick to the sensing wire element, shielding it from the incoming air. This shielding effect prevents the MAF sensor from correctly measuring the air flow and mass causing severe air-fuel ratio control problems. An ECM not in control while at pre-load is a strong indication of a dirty MAF.
In any fully electronic device, the electrical connections and circuitry fails after a certain lifespan of operation. An output signal voltage test will surely reveal a bad MAF sensor.
Hot Film MAF sensors tend to get electrical damage more often that the other type of sensors. The tap test ,as mentioned before, is a useful and simple procedure that usually reveals a bad hot film MAF sensor. Contamination or a broken air duct is also a problem for this type of sensor.

[The Bone]

Little Debbie the gear head I like it!!!

[Little Debbie]

:tease2:

Actually, I'm learning. All I know is old school (in theory mostly). I don't know a thing about all of these sensors, gauges, electrical crap and such. Learning curve. But, it is interesting to me, and, for the most part, yes, I can follow. Filling in gaps and asking (more than likely) too many questions. I do have a tendency to over-analyze. Nonetheless, I like interesting problems. :smile:

[blackshelby]

What I am gathering from this is that the A/F ratio should be increased, is this correct? As temperature increases, the rate of formation of CO2 and H2O should increase within the intake, allowing for more O2 to be readily available; without sufficient air intake, or sufficient fuel intake, the end result will not occur. Either one or the other is off, or both. The engine temperature increasing over time is a given, regardless. But, shouldn't the MAF sensor pick this up (and A/F ratio problem) and be read on IATs? And wouldn't the O2 sensor compensate for this? Could there be a problem with the catalytic converter?


The MAF meter will adjust an A/F ratio for whats in the program (it measures air and adjust to the target A/f accordingly ,absolutely The MAF also can read IAT and there are other sensors that can add or minus fuel from the maps). It will not adjust for something that is being injected in outside of what the computer is program for or know exist(Its only knows it has 8 injectors its has not clue about the meth system installed).
So that being said the car will run extremely rich when injecting the meth .
02 would correct it some if used in closed loop but 02's are not used in wot mode. The meth would be used mainly at wot. If you used it for normal driving you would need a 50 gallon tank in the car.
Also alcohol. and gasoline A/f ratio would be different. You wouldn't run the same a/f for gasoline as alcohol.
E85 is a perfect explain of this

[blackshelby]

I also found this:

Conditions that affect operation

VAF sensors are mechanical in nature. Their measuring element (wiper contact, pivot bushings and sensor resistors) get worn out over time. A binding air flap door is also a major problem with these sensors. The air flap mechanism is extremely precise and does not tolerate any misalignments. Always make sure that the air flap can travel freely all the way to its full open position. A broken air duct pipe will also render the VAF useless, since most of the air will be bypassed and enter though the broken duct hole. A thorough air duct check is always a good idea. The resistors also tend to wear out over time, sending the wrong voltage signal to the ECM. This will certainly throw off the air-fuel ratio.
The air temperature sensor and the fuel pump switch are the other reasons for VAF failures. This fuel pump switch activates the fuel pump relay and its contacts also wear down over time, causing a no start-no no-fuel pressure condition. A simple continuity test will quickly reveal a bad fuel pump switch. The air temperature sensor also follows the same electrical characteristics of a normal IAT sensor and the same ohms to temperature tables could be used for diagnostics.
Hot Wire MAF sensors are very prone to sensing wire element contamination. A condition referred to by many technicians as “growing hairs” happens when debris, dirt from cheap air filters and outside air stick to the sensing wire element, shielding it from the incoming air. This shielding effect prevents the MAF sensor from correctly measuring the air flow and mass causing severe air-fuel ratio control problems. An ECM not in control while at pre-load is a strong indication of a dirty MAF.
In any fully electronic device, the electrical connections and circuitry fails after a certain lifespan of operation. An output signal voltage test will surely reveal a bad MAF sensor.
Hot Film MAF sensors tend to get electrical damage more often that the other type of sensors. The tap test ,as mentioned before, is a useful and simple procedure that usually reveals a bad hot film MAF sensor. Contamination or a broken air duct is also a problem for this type of sensor.

Another true statement about MAf sensors.
They are now tested to go 150,000 thousands miles before they should need replacement.
Its always a good idea to check/clean them when doing a tune up in the car.(Oil used on air filters can also cause issues with the sensor)
There is also MAF learning curves parms built into the maps these days that actually will adjust the program for a sensor that is worn or dirty so it stays consistent.

[eclipseb2k2]

I have been thinking about this water meth injector all day today. I know what it is supposed to do in theory but I just haven't seen the results. I have talked to people with older or less efficient blowers/heat exchangers who have seen results in the 40 hp range, but I haven't talked to anyone who has seen any significant benefits on a GT500. Has anyone actually used one and had quantifiable results?

[blackshelby]

I have been thinking about this water meth injector all day today. I know what it is supposed to do in theory but I just haven't seen the results. I have talked to people with older or less efficient blowers/heat exchangers who have seen results in the 40 hp range, but I haven't talked to anyone who has seen any significant benefits on a GT500. Has anyone actually used one and had quantifiable results?

Yes
I have that is why I been giving you suggestions.
You should see every bit of 40 hp if the tune is done correctly along with meth.(timing must be added and a/f must be leaned out You need a good A/F gauge)
We seen that and seen over 100 when we added boost which the meth enabled us to do. To get the gains you need to adjust the tune for it.
The meth kits works if its done correctly

[Boston Mike]

so, being in TX and not worrying about hp increase, would this be useful to have for our summer season? It's my daily driver and right now around 540 rwhp or so on the stock blower with 2.6 pulley. I've always been a bit worried about the heat on this car with my driving style.

[Birdman]

so, being in TX and not worrying about hp increase, would this be useful to have for our summer season? It's my daily driver and right now around 540 rwhp or so on the stock blower with 2.6 pulley. I've always been a bit worried about the heat on this car with my driving style.

To be honest with you this type of mod is really for someone who races the car at the track. The reason I say that is because like Jim has stated earlier there is always the chance you will run out of the methonal. That would be potentially catrostrophic....

I have methonal injection on my T-Bird but that is mainly a track car. I did see a 100 rwhp gain by using methonal because I was able to add 4* of timing along with less fuel to the mix.

For an everyday street car I wouldn't bother going with meth inj, not that you couldn't but that it would make you too dependent on having to keep that meth tank full all the time. I like a tune that is set for 93 octane fuel so I never have to worry about a thing, the power is always there when you need it. Instead of going that route i recommend improving your intercooling system and engine cooling system.

[Little Debbie]

Thanks for the confirmations, additional comments, and answering my questions, blackshelby.

[Alloy Dave]

Dave, you got me interested...found this:

How Water/Methanol Injection Works

Reduce Inlet Air Charge Temperatures
Water/methanol injection helps to reduce inlet air charge temperatures and suppress detonation. A highly atomized mist of water/methanol mix is injected into the inlet airstream where it immediately starts to evaporate. The air charge temperature is reduced through evaporative cooling as the fluid changes states and goes from a liquid to a vapor. This “liquid intercooling” effect can reduce intake air temperatures by as much as 100°F or more! A cooler, denser air charge delivers more oxygen that allows for more fuel to be burned and more horsepower to be made. A cooler air charge also helps increase the knock threshold by reducing the chance of pre-ignition and detonation.

Reduce Knock
Combined, water and methanol can significantly increase your effective anti-knock index allowing for higher boost pressures and more ignition timing advance. Water absorbs heat which allows it to reduce excessive combustion temperatures and slow down the combustion rate. By slowing and controlling the combustion rate the chance of detonation occurring is greatly reduced. Methanol is a cool burning, high anti-knock rated fuel that also helps to cool and control combustion.

Reduce Carbon Deposits
Water/methanol injection will reduce carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber and in the intake manifold. Many engines use Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) for emissions control which can lead to massive carbon build up inside the air intake. Water/methanol injection will help to eliminate this build up and promote better airflow for better engine efficiency. Reducing carbon build up in the combustion chamber helps to reduce “hot spots” that can cause unwanted pre-ignition and detonation. In some instances, water/methanol injection can also slightly increase fuel economy.


So, yes, you are correct; it does come into play. Apparently the O and H2 from the H2O evaporation add O2 which "adds fuel to the fire" for more HP, and the H will combine and then combust with any carbon deposits.

:redcard::redcard:

Keith, she's getting me turned on...smartie pants alert. :boxing:

[Alloy Dave]

P.S. now if we could just find a SIMPLE way to split the bond on the H2O molecule to release Hydrogen...cars could run on water.

Dan, figure that out in your spare time. :haha:

[Little Debbie]

P.S. now if we could just find a SIMPLE way to split the bond on the H2O molecule to release Hydrogen...cars could run on water.

Dan, figure that out in your spare time. :haha:

...that could be quite explosive!

[eclipseb2k2]

I am not sure the exact A/F they did, but they did advance the timing 3*, I think I am going to go back and talk to the guy who tuned it and get some exact details on what he did

as far as putting it on a daily driver, I have 2 tunes loaded on my tuner, one for with meth and one for with out. I also have a 5 gallon tank in my trunk where the spare tire should be. my intent was to just swap tires and put a new tune in when I took it to the track.

In an odd way I am sort of excited it isn't working correctly, it gives me something to figure out and learn about......

[Gr8snkbite]

:redcard::redcard:

Keith, she's getting me turned on...smartie pants alert. :boxing:

thats my girl....:shades:

[Tommy Gun]

Like I have said before:

:new2:me


I installed a water meth kit in my '08 GT500....... like the title says I should have saved the money. It gave me about 2-3 rwhp and did not noticably drop engine temp. Sort of a bust, and a PITA to install. I wanted to share my experiance with any one considering it or see if anyone wants to trade for a water methkit......... J/K


Good info, thanks. :wtg:



.

[The Bone]

Way to go Slow Hand on top of thing as usual

[Tommy Gun]

:spitcopy: