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twobjshelbys
06-11-2010, 09:04 PM
Cobras were sold by Ford dealers in the 60's right? That makes them classic Fords :)

Earlier this spring I sent the Cobra back to Roush to look at the engine. They did alot of stuff to it. The total bill was around $3K. Plus shipping each way. I'm in a little over $5K for this "tune up".

On a "worth it" scale of 1-10 we're about 8. There were lots of problems.

The engine had never run right since I got it and I futzed around all last summer (with Roush on the other end of the phone) and it never got right. I'd started by flushing every fluid out of it, and it took about 11.5qts of oil to fill. Way over what they said on their spec sheet. I went on line and was convinced that this was a 11qt Canton racing pan that had been changed. Well, it turns out that it was the original pan and that the dip stick was not calibrated. Poof - one big problem gone. Oil was blowing by the breathers on the valve covers (even though they were baffled), and it would burn off the headers and run onto the floor. Plugs wires were soaked and the 90* plugs would vibrate off so I sent along a set of FRPP 45* boots that they installed. They also replaced the valve cover gaskets (you have to pull the driver side cover to get to the last plug). Problem 1 solved.

Issue 2 was that the engine was at a slight angle. The engine mounts aren't level so they shimmed. The driver side mount is still high but the pipe doesn't rub as much on the exit port. I still want to look more at that but it's OK for now.

They rewired the DFI controller harness and dressed up the install. There were huge wire looms where they took the cables and connected them to the other end at the front of the engine instead of running shortest route. Wires were merely twisted and black taped in the loom. I'd seen that and didn't want to tear into it myself lest I mis-wire something. I have a box of wires they trimmed off and sent back. I will post some pictures of before and after. At least now in future dealings I will not have to argue with them about the install job.

The third problem - rough running - is still there to some degree - and represents the remaining 2 of 10 points.

The original problem/symptom was that it would cut out (miss) at about 4000RPM under quick acceleration (like getting into an accel lane or off the block at the strip) When I got it home on Tuesday I took it for a spin and it ran a little rough on a quick accel, but the engine was cold. I let it warm up and ran a few runs into the accel lane I use for the test and it ran pretty well up to close to the red line. Then it started to spit rain.

Wednesday night I took it out again and it failed. I had just filled it up with gas. The only two changes from their tests in Detroit to here were gas and altitude. They had filled it with 92 (which is probably 95 here). I filled with 91 (which would be their 93+). But in case the pump isn't right I drove to town to get some octane booster. It rained on me on the way home so I didn't get a chance to run it hard. (There is a third change - the driver :) )

I took it out yesterday for the same test and it still failed - rough running at 4000.

This is a DFI system that has altitude compensation (it reads the base from the MAP when the engine is not running). So last night I installed the Accel CalMap software and looked - the compensation table is null - there is no adjustment happening... So I'm waiting for Roush to tell me what they do next.

This afternoon I decided to take it for a test run and have my wife shoot a video on my crappy-cell-phone-video-camera to send to Roush. Guess what. It didn't fail. But it did rain on me. So there is a humidity/atmospheric pressure change (more humid, lower pressure) from the Thursday run (sunny, warmer, high pressure).

So now it's down to intermittent, but it still runs better than it did.

I was going to attach a video but it looks like I'll have to load it up to photobucket first.

twobjshelbys
06-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Test run video



http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2010-06-11%20Cobra%20after%20Roush/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100611-1357.mp4

This is from a Blackberry phone.

JTB
06-11-2010, 09:19 PM
Test run video



http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2010-06-11%20Cobra%20after%20Roush/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100611-1357.mp4

This is from a Blackberry phone.


Sweet Music Tony!

:drool:

Glad you got it back!

twobjshelbys
06-11-2010, 09:44 PM
Sweet Music Tony!

:drool:

Glad you got it back!

No other car has the sound of the Cobra.

I was trying to get the tach above 5000. By the time I was in third at 5K i saw I was going almost 85. Speed limit in this section is 60. Just as I looked up I saw a white SUV that looked like the Sheriff's vehicles. Almost had a heart attack.

rickf73
06-12-2010, 01:06 AM
No other car has the sound of the Cobra.

I was trying to get the tach above 5000. By the time I was in third at 5K i saw I was going almost 85. Speed limit in this section is 60. Just as I looked up I saw a white SUV that looked like the Sheriff's vehicles. Almost had a heart attack.

Sounds awesome. Always loved those cars, maybe some day I can be lucky enough.

Cobra Drifter
06-12-2010, 02:17 AM
Test run video



http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2010-06-11%20Cobra%20after%20Roush/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100611-1357.mp4

This is from a Blackberry phone.

That sounds sick!! :drool:

Joe G
06-12-2010, 03:49 AM
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2010-06-11%20Cobra%20after%20Roush/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100611-1357.mp4

This is from a Blackberry phone.

That sound makes me tingly all over. :grin:

Grabber
06-12-2010, 06:24 AM
It sure does sound cool Tony.

I hope you get to your "10" soon.

65SC
06-12-2010, 10:16 AM
Tony, I know how you feel, been there done that. Only took 2yrs to sort mine out and :spend::spend::spend::spend:

Carnut
06-12-2010, 12:25 PM
It seems wiring is the biggest fail that most of the Cobras down here have. The builder uses a wiring harness from a different application, hacks the crap out of and end up with "issues" forever.

One of the local guys was having ignition switch problems. Under the dash, in the span of a little over a foot, the wire was made up of 3 little sections of wire, connected end to end to make one piece of wire. If that wasn't bad enough, plain house type wire nuts were used to connect them. No solder was used, I guess the guy was too cheap to buy a solder gun, a longer piece of wire and heat shrink. That was just the ignition feed, the rest of the wiring under the dash was much the same, a rats nest of poorly connected wires.

My buddy who was doing the work, told the guy he wasn't going to do anymore on it without replacing the entire wiring harness with a new one. I don't blame him.

Anyway, great to hear you got your car back, it would look great in the 4th of the July parade in Heber. (Hint, hint)

Gr8snkbite
06-12-2010, 01:21 PM
Well glad it's starting to get sorted out Tony...all in time I'm sure.

Multiple wire connections leads to problems in them.

Black Vert SS
06-12-2010, 01:34 PM
Love that sound.

The knees not so much!

Glad to hear you are working things out.

twobjshelbys
06-12-2010, 02:02 PM
The other thing that seems to support the running rich is that it backfires when I let off the accelerator. Usually when I let off to slow down but yesterday it did it once when I was shifting.

Birdman
06-12-2010, 03:37 PM
The other thing that seems to support the running rich is that it backfires when I let off the accelerator. Usually when I let off to slow down but yesterday it did it once when I was shifting.

A pair of wide band o2's installed after the header collectors connected to a good wide band monitor would go a long way to dialing in that car's a/f system.

twobjshelbys
06-12-2010, 05:21 PM
There is a single sensor wideband (recommended config, I asked about the two sensor and Roush said not to bother). The setting is being saturated beyond the table whereas the deltas added by the altitude table will recenter the base table.

twobjshelbys
06-13-2010, 04:54 AM
Update: While I was looking around to get some more info, I found that there are two altitude compensation tables in CalMap, one in the Ignition and one in the Fuel. The ignition one (which adds or removes advance) is indeed null (0). But the Fuel one is populated. It is a multiplier, and most of the terms are >1.0, especially in the range where I am at. It would seem to me that they should be <1.0 at altitude - that is, less air => less fuel to maintain a constant AFR. Do I have this wrong?

I may have some failing memory cells but I have a vague memory that this table might in fact be "inverted" in that it was treated as a "divide by" instead of a "multiply by" so that the numbers should all be calculated as 1/x... Might be worth a try...

I'm going to load some of the sample tunes from Accel into the ECU to see what they look like.

Boy, talk about a wide-open tune engine. I can change everything!!!

Birdman
06-13-2010, 12:18 PM
Update: While I was looking around to get some more info, I found that there are two altitude compensation tables in CalMap, one in the Ignition and one in the Fuel. The ignition one (which adds or removes advance) is indeed null (0). But the Fuel one is populated. It is a multiplier, and most of the terms are >1.0, especially in the range where I am at. It would seem to me that they should be <1.0 at altitude - that is, less air => less fuel to maintain a constant AFR. Do I have this wrong?


I may have some failing memory cells but I have a vague memory that this table might in fact be "inverted" in that it was treated as a "divide by" instead of a "multiply by" so that the numbers should all be calculated as 1/x... Might be worth a try...

I'm going to load some of the sample tunes from Accel into the ECU to see what they look like.

Boy, talk about a wide-open tune engine. I can change everything!!!

I agree this should be the case like you said. Usually a (-) minus multilplier would reduce the amount of fuel as altitude increases. Do you have any pics of the table, I would like to see how it is oriented? Most software use a multiplier with either a (+) or a (-).

badboy500
06-13-2010, 12:53 PM
Very nice ride, I like the yellow on black.The sound is very sim to my Shelby, very cool.

twobjshelbys
06-13-2010, 02:09 PM
Here's one of the tables.

1062

Little Debbie
06-13-2010, 11:48 PM
Test run video



http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2010-06-11%20Cobra%20after%20Roush/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100611-1357.mp4

This is from a Blackberry phone.

Like music! Saweet. Glad you get to enjoy having your car back home.
:smile:

Birdman
06-14-2010, 11:37 AM
Here's one of the tables.

1062

It looks like you have the "settings" on metric could you switch it over to standard settings so the readings are in (in"/hg)

On most DFI system's the ambient atmospheric reading is sampled only once each time the ignition is turned on. Once the engine is started it uses that information and compares it to the actual MAP readings the engine is producing. The reason for this is because there is usually only one MAP sensor which is connected to the engine manifold.
What this means is there is really no ongoing accurate correction's being made while the car is changing elevation because it is basing everything off of the original sensor readings taken before the engine started at whatever that atmospheric pressure was in the place where it was started. This is just one of the problems with a DFI system.


On another note the issue that you are having when you said this: "The original problem/symptom was that it would cut out (miss) at about 4000RPM under quick acceleration (like getting into an accel lane or off the block at the strip)"

I'm not sure how much control they give you in your DFI maps but......
This can be addressed in the transitional fuel tables. This controls the amount of fuel added when you step on the accelerator pedal. It acts just like the "accelerator pump" in a carburator where it squirts a specific amount of fuel based on the rate of throttle change.
On a mass air system there is even decel fuel setting which controle the amount of fuel when the throttle is closed. Your car probably uses a IAC motor on the TB to do this.

Do you have any close up pics of the engine, especially the top which shows the TB and injectors etc?

twobjshelbys
06-15-2010, 02:00 PM
Do you have any close up pics of the engine, especially the top which shows the TB and injectors etc?

It is a faux 8-stack weber with individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. This is the only picture I could lay my hands on quickly.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2009-01-26%20Cobra%20Delivery/DSC_2611.jpg

Stew
06-15-2010, 02:49 PM
It is a faux 8-stack weber with individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. This is the only picture I could lay my hands on quickly.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2009-01-26%20Cobra%20Delivery/DSC_2611.jpg

:wow2:, Looks sweeeeet. I am so jealous.

twobjshelbys
06-15-2010, 04:06 PM
Over the weekend I had a small revelation. I'd been treating this as a Roush problem and looking for them to resolve it. It is now my belief that the limit of their setup and calibration (tuning) is to demonstrate the engine runs on their engine dyno. Actually creating a running tune is the responsibility of the engine installer. That shifted my focus from Roush to Accel. Yesterday I spoke with a Accel "partner" - called EMICs - in Ft. Collins that actually has some experience with the Accel Gen7 system. This portion is actually engine independent - dialing in the tables is not something that can easily be done except on a chassis dyno with loading capability. Working...

Birdman
06-15-2010, 07:47 PM
Over the weekend I had a small revelation. I'd been treating this as a Roush problem and looking for them to resolve it. It is now my belief that the limit of their setup and calibration (tuning) is to demonstrate the engine runs on their engine dyno. Actually creating a running tune is the responsibility of the engine installer. That shifted my focus from Roush to Accel. Yesterday I spoke with a Accel "partner" - called EMICs - in Ft. Collins that actually has some experience with the Accel Gen7 system. This portion is actually engine independent - dialing in the tables is not something that can easily be done except on a chassis dyno with loading capability. Working...

I'm not familliar with how they incorporate an IAC with that system, I would need to see an up close pic. Maybe Roush has some pics on their web site of that setup?

Most of the tuning settings are done within the computer program and should be done in driving conditions either on the dyno or while driving on the street. Of course that would require the tuner to sit in the passenger seat with his laptop while you drive and give him feedback. That's why a dyno is the perfered choice.(much safer and controlled environment where more things could be monitored)
Didn't Roush try and tune the car on their chassis dyno? Does the Accel system utilize two MAP sensors or just one? If it is only one it would be best to tune the car in your local area...IMO.

Alloy Dave
06-15-2010, 09:55 PM
Looks like you're making progress Tony. :boxing:

mustang loco
06-15-2010, 10:04 PM
:wow2:, Looks sweeeeet. I am so jealous.

yep,plus one here!!very nice !!

mustang loco
06-15-2010, 10:07 PM
Test run video



http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/tpribors/2010-06-11%20Cobra%20after%20Roush/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100611-1357.mp4

This is from a Blackberry phone.


Sounds very good,too!!

twobjshelbys
06-22-2010, 02:36 AM
I dropped it off at a shop in Ft. Collins tonight. Should be back in a week or so.

Carnut
06-23-2010, 01:36 PM
Good luck with the tuner, issues suck.

65SC
06-23-2010, 02:10 PM
I now know why so many Cobra owners prefer a clone then a authentic Cobra. Costs less, built better and you don't have to deal with the bullshit from the Shelby dealer and the poor customer service from SA :rollingpin:

Little Debbie
06-23-2010, 02:16 PM
:sorry:

twobjshelbys
06-23-2010, 02:41 PM
I now know why so many Cobra owners prefer a clone then a authentic Cobra. Costs less, built better and you don't have to deal with the bullshit from the Shelby dealer and the poor customer service from SA :rollingpin:


This would be no different with a Backdraft or Superformance. Everything about the roller is good. The engine install was done by amateurs. This part is the mistaken impression that the engine is "tuned" from the factory. It's good enough to start up but not run well. A seasoned assembler (like Gessford or Becker) would have done all of this before delivery knowing it had to be done. I think the guys that put it together thought the engine was "drop in ready". It's not. I'd been barking up the Roush tree. After I got it back and the data logging showed various conditions of rich and lean, I started hunting down the Accel DFI "EMIC"s. The guy I'm taking it to has done a few of these systems, and drove a Cobra at the Steamboat motor cross (belongs to a friend of his and he works on it) so I believe he's a little more knowledgeable than the guy from last summer. In fact, I chose the other guy because he was closer. If I'd gone to the current guy last year I'd be done. Oh well.

65SC
06-23-2010, 04:01 PM
This would be no different with a Backdraft or Superformance. Everything about the roller is good. The engine install was done by amateurs. This part is the mistaken impression that the engine is "tuned" from the factory. It's good enough to start up but not run well. A seasoned assembler (like Gessford or Becker) would have done all of this before delivery knowing it had to be done. I think the guys that put it together thought the engine was "drop in ready". It's not. I'd been barking up the Roush tree. After I got it back and the data logging showed various conditions of rich and lean, I started hunting down the Accel DFI "EMIC"s. The guy I'm taking it to has done a few of these systems, and drove a Cobra at the Steamboat motor cross (belongs to a friend of his and he works on it) so I believe he's a little more knowledgeable than the guy from last summer. In fact, I chose the other guy because he was closer. If I'd gone to the current guy last year I'd be done. Oh well.

SA should visit and inspect all these dealers like they do the mod shops. I was told by GP that the dealer that built mine builds a good CSX and is in good standing with SA. What BS that was. Once the problem started the dealers goes silent and is removed from SA dealers list. So I turned to HRE for help. I find out that HRE has fixed two other Cobras that this dealer messed up and SA took care of it. So now I'm out another $15K to have the Cobra fixed and SA tells me to get it from the dealer and thank you for being a loyal customer. :angry3:

JTB
06-23-2010, 04:16 PM
SA should visit and inspect all these dealers like they do the mod shops. I was told by GP that the dealer that built mine builds a good CSX and is in good standing with SA. What BS that was. Once the problem started the dealers goes silent and is removed from SA dealers list. So I turned to HRE for help. I find out that HRE has fixed two other Cobras that this dealer messed up and SA took care of it. So now I'm out another $15K to have the Cobra fixed and SA tells me to get it from the dealer and thank you for being a loyal customer. :angry3:

Hearing stuff like this just drives me nuts. :mad1:

It's just complete BOLLOCKS!

Hope you get it sorted.

Carnut
06-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Poor installations and product sure makes these exotic fuel systems miserable.

twobjshelbys
06-24-2010, 07:21 PM
Hearing stuff like this just drives me nuts. :mad1:

It's just complete BOLLOCKS!

Hope you get it sorted.

I think it is sorted out and he's selling his Cobra.

65SC
06-25-2010, 02:01 PM
I think it is sorted out and he's selling his Cobra.

sorted out and ready to go

Tommy Gun
07-31-2012, 08:31 PM
Cobras were sold by Ford dealers in the 60's right? That makes them classic Fords :)

Earlier this spring I sent the Cobra back to Roush to look at the engine. They did alot of stuff to it. The total bill was around $3K. Plus shipping each way. I'm in a little over $5K for this "tune up".

On a "worth it" scale of 1-10 we're about 8. There were lots of problems.

The engine had never run right since I got it and I futzed around all last summer (with Roush on the other end of the phone) and it never got right. I'd started by flushing every fluid out of it, and it took about 11.5qts of oil to fill. Way over what they said on their spec sheet. I went on line and was convinced that this was a 11qt Canton racing pan that had been changed. Well, it turns out that it was the original pan and that the dip stick was not calibrated. Poof - one big problem gone. Oil was blowing by the breathers on the valve covers (even though they were baffled), and it would burn off the headers and run onto the floor. Plugs wires were soaked and the 90* plugs would vibrate off so I sent along a set of FRPP 45* boots that they installed. They also replaced the valve cover gaskets (you have to pull the driver side cover to get to the last plug). Problem 1 solved.

Issue 2 was that the engine was at a slight angle. The engine mounts aren't level so they shimmed. The driver side mount is still high but the pipe doesn't rub as much on the exit port. I still want to look more at that but it's OK for now.

They rewired the DFI controller harness and dressed up the install. There were huge wire looms where they took the cables and connected them to the other end at the front of the engine instead of running shortest route. Wires were merely twisted and black taped in the loom. I'd seen that and didn't want to tear into it myself lest I mis-wire something. I have a box of wires they trimmed off and sent back. I will post some pictures of before and after. At least now in future dealings I will not have to argue with them about the install job.

The third problem - rough running - is still there to some degree - and represents the remaining 2 of 10 points.

The original problem/symptom was that it would cut out (miss) at about 4000RPM under quick acceleration (like getting into an accel lane or off the block at the strip) When I got it home on Tuesday I took it for a spin and it ran a little rough on a quick accel, but the engine was cold. I let it warm up and ran a few runs into the accel lane I use for the test and it ran pretty well up to close to the red line. Then it started to spit rain.

Wednesday night I took it out again and it failed. I had just filled it up with gas. The only two changes from their tests in Detroit to here were gas and altitude. They had filled it with 92 (which is probably 95 here). I filled with 91 (which would be their 93+). But in case the pump isn't right I drove to town to get some octane booster. It rained on me on the way home so I didn't get a chance to run it hard. (There is a third change - the driver :) )

I took it out yesterday for the same test and it still failed - rough running at 4000.

This is a DFI system that has altitude compensation (it reads the base from the MAP when the engine is not running). So last night I installed the Accel CalMap software and looked - the compensation table is null - there is no adjustment happening... So I'm waiting for Roush to tell me what they do next.

This afternoon I decided to take it for a test run and have my wife shoot a video on my crappy-cell-phone-video-camera to send to Roush. Guess what. It didn't fail. But it did rain on me. So there is a humidity/atmospheric pressure change (more humid, lower pressure) from the Thursday run (sunny, warmer, high pressure).

So now it's down to intermittent, but it still runs better than it did.

I was going to attach a video but it looks like I'll have to load it up to photobucket first.


Have you needed another tune up yet? :popcorn:

.