Mustang Restomod

[68fastback]

Still waiting on parts I ordered so I decided to get the switch installed for the Overdrive Cancel switch. I ordered a momentary contact switch with an integral LED light.

Other than the PITA of the tiny little terminals, lost reading glasses, and too much coffee, the install was rather straight forward. Power to switch and the LED. Circuits from the NO pole and LED to the controller.

Started it up, everything worked except, the LED would light in the normal mode (should only light in the OD Cancel mode) faintly at idle then brighter as the rpm increased. The brighter is obviously because the alternator is putting out more voltage. The light is considerably brighter in the OD Cancel mode.

The LED out circuit is supposed to ground in the cancel mode and that is why it is lighting brightly. I must be getting some sort of a ground, not a good one mind you, but some, in the normal mode, causing the LED to light.

I really haven't had that much experience with LED's but do know power goes to the anode and ground goes to the cathode. I also am under the belief that they can be voltage sensitive.

I also read somewhere that it is necessary to add a dropping resistor to the voltage side of the LED in some instances.

Given all of this, I am assuming tha too high of a voltage (over 12.5) is allowing the LED to light through some sort of induced ground.

Any thoughts from any of you electronics gurus out there??

Don't know much about circuit design, but LEDs do seem to have specific voltage ranges they want to operate at based some of the hobby circuitry I've seen for LED flashlights and such and the odd number of batteries often used. Higher and they fail more quickly; lower and they're not LEDs. As diodes, it would seem to make sense they'd be sensitive to any bias/bleed to ground so possibly there's some micro debris or metalic content in the residual flux on the from soldering that's bridging/bleeding? That's a stretch but maybe cleaning with a toothbrush and some high-dielectic electronics cleaner may help? Dunno ...even if it just changes what you're seeing, that might give some insight.

[Carnut]

Don't know much about circuit design, but LEDs do seem to have specific voltage ranges they want to operate at based some of the hobby circuitry I've seen for LED flashlights and such and the odd number of batteries often used. Higher and they fail more quickly; lower and they're not LEDs. As diodes, it would seem to make sense they'd be sensitive to any bias/bleed to ground so possibly there's some micro debris or metalic content in the residual flux on the from soldering that's bridging/bleeding? That's a stretch but maybe cleaning with a toothbrush and some high-dielectic electronics cleaner may help? Dunno ...even if it just changes what you're seeing, that might give some insight.

You got my old squrrel brain thinking. Trying to reason this out.

The LED ground goes to solenoid internal to the transmission, the transmission containing fluid. I am sure with the various metal compounds and possibily metal from the clutches etcs, suspended in the fluid, that one could get some current to flow, poorly, but some flow.

So, noodling this out, because LED's take very little current to begin with, it seems that the LED could actually be getting a ground circuit via the transmission fluid, just enough to dimly light the LED, but a ground none the less. Increasing the voltage, as in the case of higher engine rpms driving the alternator to 14.5 v would explain the LED getting a little brighter. I dunno either, but this seems to make sense to me.

And then again, maybe I am all wrong on my theory.

Anyone??

[68fastback]

Bruce, you mentioned the resistor but didn't mention if you used one. Here's how to calculate the resistor you'll need.

First example is for three 3.1v LEDs wired in series to 12v nominal source.

Second is for a single 3.1v LED on a 13.2v nominal source.


Basic formula: Source Voltage - LED Voltage Drop ) / Amps = OHMs

Source Voltage = 12 volts (for example 1)
Voltage Drop = 9.3 volts (3.1v typical for a blue or white LED, yours may vary -lol)
Desired Current = 20 milliamps (again, a typical value, depends on LED spec.)
So the resistor you'd need iin this example s: (12 - 9.3) / ( 20 / 1000 ) = 135 ohms

If it was one 3.1v LED and 13.2v source it would look like this:
Voltage drop: 3.1vTarget current: 20ma
13.2 - 3.1 / (20 / 1000) = 505 ohms

...if my math is correct -lol. Without the resistor the LED(s) will fail much earlier than their normal life expectancy.

[Carnut]

Bruce, you mentioned the resistor but didn't mention if you used one. Here's how to calculate the resistor you'll need.

First example is for three 3.1v LEDs wired in series to 12v nominal source.

Second is for a single 3.1v LED on a 13.2v nominal source.[/F


[FONT=Verdana]Basic formula: Source Voltage - LED Voltage Drop ) / Amps = OHMs

Source Voltage = 12 volts (for example 1)
Voltage Drop = 9.3 volts (3.1v typical for a blue or white LED, yours may vary -lol)
Desired Current = 20 milliamps (again, a typical value, depends on LED spec.)
So the resistor you'd need iin this example s: (12 - 9.3) / ( 20 / 1000 ) = 135 ohms

If it was one 3.1v LED and 13.2v source it would look like this:
Voltage drop: 3.1vTarget current: 20ma
13.2 - 3.1 / (20 / 1000) = 505 ohms

...if my math is correct -lol. Without the resistor the LED(s) will fail much earlier than their normal life expectancy.

Thanks, I need to run down the voltage requirement from the manufacturer's website.

Any thoughts on the "phantom" ground through transmission fluid.???

[68fastback]

Thanks, I need to run down the voltage requirement from the manufacturer's website.

Any thoughts on the "phantom" ground through transmission fluid.???


Dunno ...can't find anything on conductivity/ressitance of ATF, and I don't know enough about how sensitive the ground is to know if it's plausable. Possibly without the resistor to limit current it may be overdriving the LED and behaving strangely? I don't know if that's something that happens, but maybe it'd be worthwhile to try the resistor first and see what happens?

[Carnut]

yea, the reducing resistor should be the first step. Hopefully there will be no need for step 2.

In the meantime, I think I'll go stick my ohm meter in some tranny fluid.

[68fastback]

yea, the reducing resistor should be the first step. Hopefully there will be no need for step 2.

In the meantime, I think I'll go stick my ohm meter in some tranny fluid.


...that's an excellent :idea: ! Possibly the resistor will make the ground not be so sensitive -- if that is even what's happening.

[Carnut]

...that's an excellent :idea: ! Possibly the resistor will make the ground not be so sensitive -- if that is even what's happening.

Let you know what happens. Thanks for your help

[68fastback]

:tiphat2: ...fingers crossed!

[Carnut]

I added a half watt/1000 ohm resistor to the LED sources power and it fixed the issue. The lamp isn't quite as brilliant but is still easily seen in the daylight. I suppose I could fool around with it and try a 1/4 watt resistor but I think I will leave it. It might be the light was overdriven a little anyway or else current really does flow in tranny fluid (maybe). :yes:

Funny story on myself, I first soldered the resistor to the solenoid feed and that didn't work worth a crap. Then after putting on my glasses, I realized my error. Fix was simple, just swapped the leads. It sucks getting mature. :doh2:

[68fastback]

I added a half watt/1000 ohm resistor to the LED sources power and it fixed the issue. The lamp isn't quite as brilliant but is still easily seen in the daylight. I suppose I could fool around with it and try a 1/4 watt resistor but I think I will leave it. It might be the light was overdriven a little anyway or else current really does flow in tranny fluid (maybe). :yes:

Funny story on myself, I first soldered the resistor to the solenoid feed and that didn't work worth a crap. Then after putting on my glasses, I realized my error. Fix was simple, just swapped the leads. It sucks getting mature. :doh2:

I've heard about that :hide: ;-)

Bruce, don't change to a resistor with a diff wattage ...that rating is plenty of energy capacity since that LED consumes next to nothing. If you change to a different resistance (ohm), like 500 ohm, that should alter the LED's brightness. :idea: a variable (slide or pot type) resistor should let you 'tune' the brightness to your liking. If you can only find variables that have 0-to-nnn ohms, you put it in series with maybe a 250 ohm resistor (to protect the LED ever seeing 0 ohms for long periods), if you see what I mean.

[Carnut]

I've heard about that :hide: ;-)

Bruce, don't change to a resistor with a diff wattage ...that rating is plenty of energy capacity since that LED consumes next to nothing. If you change to a different resistance (ohm), like 500 ohm, that should alter the LED's brightness. :idea: a variable (slide or pot type) resistor should let you 'tune' the brightness to your liking. If you can only find variables that have 0-to-nnn ohms, you put it in series with maybe a 250 ohm resistor (to protect the LED ever seeing 0 ohms for long periods), if you see what I mean.

I think I am going to try it as is, see how bright is day vs night, then adjust if necessary. Thanks for the tip on the possible changes, I am just glad this didn't turn into some big PITA.

I should be seeing my coil overs, a new trunk matt, lighter hood springs, and my window felts with new rollers in the next few days. That will give me enough to do over the long weekend. I have to fit the new glass hood still and that could take a little time. Whew.

BTW, they make hearing aids.

[68fastback]

I think I am going to try it as is, see how bright is day vs night, then adjust if necessary. Thanks for the tip on the possible changes, I am just glad this didn't turn into some big PITA.

I should be seeing my coil overs, a new trunk matt, lighter hood springs, and my window felts with new rollers in the next few days. That will give me enough to do over the long weekend. I have to fit the new glass hood still and that could take a little time. Whew.

BTW, they make hearing aids.

What? ;-)

Sounds like a fun-busy weekend!

[Carnut]

FIBERGLASS HOOD INSTALL

It's been a long time since I installed a new hood.

I decided to install my new fiberglass hood and what a PITA that turned out to be. The actually bolting on of the hood only took a few minutes but the height adjustments took me forever. Sometime ago, I removed the old hinges, sandblasted them and repainted them. In doing so, I lost all reference to the orginal adjustments although maintained them really didn't matter that much because the new glass hood is a little different.

The hinges on these old cars are quite a bit different than the hinges on our late model Mustangs. The new ones are a very simply fixed point attachment, while the old ones utilize a scissors like dual pivot setup with a spring. They control the height, fore and aft as well left and right. One little change on one side, affects the other. Since it has been years since I messed around with one of these, I had forgotten the tricks to make it fit right.

So, here is the procedure.

Remount the hinges in a neutral position, neutral means centering the bolt in the larger bolt hole of the hinge mounting flange so have the most adjustment in all directions. Snug the bolts so the hinge doesn't rotate.

Mount the hood on the hinges, also starting in the most neutral position on the bolt holes. Carefully close the hood, checking clearances at the sides and back of the hood. I recommend putting tape on the corners of the hood opening to keep the hood from scratching or nicking the paint. If the sides and back clearance are good, close the hood. Most likely they won't be so loosen the hinge to hood bolts on one side of the hood at time and move the hood fore or aft, left or right and askew as necessary to get all the gaps as even as possible.

Once the hood fits the opening, again close the hood and adjust the hood bumpers at the front so the hood is flush with the body surface.

Go to the back of the hood, it will likely be high or low in the back. If it is high, loosen the bolts slightly and push up on the front of the hood until the hinges rotate. Easy, really small adjustments here. Re-snug the bolts and close the hood, repeat the procedure until the hood is flush. If it is low, roll-up a small towel and place it between the back of the hood and the firewall, loosen the bolts slightly and partially close the hood until the hinge rotates slightly. Again, take it easy, small changes.

This whole process is a lot easier if you have a helper or two. In my case, I was by myself, so it ended up being a process for several hours, up to far, down to far, many many times because I had no one to help support the hood and tighten or loosen bolts.

Once the back is where you want it, check your clearances all around the hood. If you need a little tweak, make it now at the hood to hinge bolts.

Adjust your hood latch accordingly.

Chances are, your old Mustang has been in the body shop and your hood will not fit exactly right. I have a slight bow in mine and I will have to fix that before I finalize the fitting.

To get the clearances right you have to either move the fender or add/remove material on the sides of the glass hood. Unfortunately, mine car had been whacked here and there over the years and there was no adjustment left in the fenders or the grill surround.

The next thing I have to do is get the bow out of the hood, I will be trying heat (from a hot air gun) and clamps. If I do this right, the bow will be gone after it cools. That process should narrow my gap at the rear of the hood.

[68fastback]

Wow ...sounds pretty involved ...and calling on Mrs 'nut to help prolly wasn't a good option (wish I was nearby! ;-)).

I remember those double-scisor mechanisms tho never messed with one.

Curious, do you remove the latching mechanisms while doing the initial fit-up or do you leave them inplace? I can see potential merit for both ways but was wondering if one way is better/easier.

Nice write-up, Bruce!! :tiphat2:

[Carnut]

Wow ...sounds pretty involved ...and calling on Mrs 'nut to help prolly wasn't a good option (wish I was nearby! ;-)).

I remember those double-scisor mechanisms tho never messed with one.

Curious, do you remove the latching mechanisms while doing the initial fit-up or do you leave them inplace? I can see potential merit for both ways but was wondering if one way is better/easier.

Nice write-up, Bruce!! :tiphat2:

In my case, I removed the latch mechanism for a couple reasons. The hood is up and down and number of times and the latch can interfere with the fit. Once its fit, you can install the latch and adjust it. Because a new hood is likely a little different, they latch pin needs to be adjusted up and down and the catch needs fore aft left right adjustment to keep from stressing the glass and warping it later.

[68fastback]

In my case, I removed the latch mechanism for a couple reasons. The hood is up and down and number of times and the latch can interfere with the fit. Once its fit, you can install the latch and adjust it. Because a new hood is likely a little different, they latch pin needs to be adjusted up and down and the catch needs fore aft left right adjustment to keep from stressing the glass and warping it later.

Cool ...thanks -- that's exactly why I asked ...seemed it would be simpler with latch removed initially. :tiphat2:

[Carnut]

Cool ...thanks -- that's exactly why I asked ...seemed it would be simpler with latch removed initially. :tiphat2:

I am installing hood pins now, no latch yet. It's critical to have to hood completely aligned before drilling these holes and they really need to be dead nuts on. I choose to remove the exisitng hood bumpers and use those holes for the pins. I will fabricate a new bumper on the pin eventually.

Once they were installed, I put a piece of masking tape on the underside of the hood. I closed the hood a few times and the pin made a perfect spot to locate my drill bit. Obviously you drill from the bottom side and I started with a small pilot hole double check that I was centered on the pin from the topside. I used a step drill (as a regular bit can tear out the hole) and enlarged the holes as needed. Perfect fit, which will help keep that hood in alignment as it closes.

After the hood was locked in, I used a long sanding board with 240 grit paper and eased the sides of the hood up towards the front. While the gaps were centered, they were a little too tight.

When its finalized, I will post a few pics but I gotta tell ya, a hood and its hinges are a boring thing.

[Carnut]

I got the Stang out of the garage to give it the eyeball on the hood install. Obviously a necessary step because I found a number of items that needed attention. In the garage, you really can't see alot because you are too close to your work.

HOOD FITMENT

The front lip of the hood drooped down in the center, making it look like a late model Camaro. Yuk. In addition the hood fit in the front at the edges still looked high.

The front lip is supposed to look level. Using a straight edge on the bottom side, I could see it was nearly an inch low in the middle. Taking a "Sharpie", I marked the center where it needed to be. Using the straight edge, I marked a line where the hood needed to finish and then marked an additional line about an 1/8th inch lower all across the hood. Using a small cut off wheel on a die grinder, I cut the hood all the way across, holding to the second line. Care needs to be taken to hold the cut off wheel as parallel to what would be the ground wtih the hood closed.

The cut came out pretty straight. I finished the opening with 180 grit sand paper on a long board sander, making sure I held it in the same position all time. Finally, I radiused the sharp edge with a sanding sponge.

The hood still fit too high at the juncture of the front of the fender and the headlight surround. It hit on the pointy front edge of the sheet metal grill surrond and I had already thinned the glass hood as much as I dared. I looked the sheet metal over very carefully and there was no room left to adjust the fender, the grille surround or anything else. Finally, in desperation, I literally grabbed the out side pointy corner of the grille surround and turned them inward about half and inch by hand. I was doublefull I could bend them, but I put the grunt on and it worked. I now had the clearance I needed to bring the hood down another quarter inch, just what I needed.

JUNK HOOD PINS

The hood pins I bought were Mr. Gasket with the lynch pin style pins. (Ala GT350). More crap, the second or third time I rotated the torsion spring, they fell off. Complete junk. I ended up having to go to ACE hardware and bought their 3/16 Lynch pins for $3. They work perfectly, too bad Mr. Gasket can't supply a good part. Needless to say, I really try to avoid buying this brand and only did so because it was all I find at the time. This experience just reminded why.


DOOR WINDOWS.

Like most old iron, the door windows worked like crap, the passenger side had finally fallen out of its track. So, I bought new front and rear glass runs, new rollers and whiskers. I put the new parts in the trunk and took it to a local glass shop that I had used for hot rods before. Its a small shop and the Owner really knows the old cars and what a PITA they can be. In the end, the door glass works like brand new, it fits just right and I am really happy I had this done. I did not want to tackle it myself because these cars are really hard to adjust correctly and it took an experienced installer to get it done right. Not that I couldn't have done it, I just wanted it done in before the snow flies again.

NEW ANNOYANCES

Dealing with vintage iron can get really frustrating at times. Before I took it to the glass shop, my fuel guage broke, bummer. On the way home from the glass shop, my speedometer quit working. The fuel guage is electric and the speedometer is mechanical. I had not replaced either of these before, so I guess it was time. Funny how they both broke about the same time. I have a new gauge and a speedometer cable on order, maybe here by the weekend.


WAITING ON OTHER PARTS

I ordered my front coil overs over a month ago from Total Control. I have talked to them a couple times and they are having a parts shortage but said they now had the parts and hoped to have them shipped this week. Well, here it is Friday and I see my credit card had not been charged yet. I guess I can pretty much bet they wont arrive today.

Arrrgh.

I just want to get this car to the painter, get my hood painted and enjoy the car.

[68fastback]

Thanks for another grat update, Nuts :tiphat2: Soon it will all have been worth it! :banana:

[The Bone]

Ah the joys of restoring a car. One never thinks about how much de4tail goes into making them look right anf forget about the money you will never get that back. I sure hope you get some seat time soon God knows you deserve it

[Carnut]

I got my new fuel guage yesterday, so I pulled out the cluster and disassembled it. I put the new guage in place and right away I knew that wasn't going to work. The new guage had nice bright lettering and graphics as well as this wonderful red needle. The existing guages and speedometer looked like crap, dingy letters, sun faded needles.

GAUGE RESTORATION TIPS

After 45 years, dust, dirt and sunshine take a toll on auto guages and they look bad. The guages are good otherwise and they can be replaced, but why through away money when you don't need to.

The needles are faded, so repaint them. Most needles are a day-glo or fluorescent red but matching is tough. I went to a hobby store a bought a one ounce bottle of Testors, Fluorescent Red which ended up being the perfect color. The needles are very fragile so I slipped a thin piece of cardboard under the needle and over the guage face. You can then paint the needle in the long direction without bending it or getting paint on the guage face.

The painted letters and graphics on the new guage were a very clean white, the old ones were a dingy white. I used a Q-Tip and a little rubbing alchohol and gently cleaned them. Be carefull you don't rub too long or hard on the white or it will come off. After the white was clean, I continued using more Q-Tips dampened with a little water. It takes a while, but eventually the black gets clean and slightly shiney.

Lastly, clean inside the cluster, clean the turn signal indicator lens and the instrument light lenses, again, using dampened Q-Tips.

I am attaching some pics of the finished product. The new guage is the fuel, the rest I refurbished. It's a little hard to get the glare off the lenses but I think you get the picture (hehe).

One final suggestion, I find the instrument lights are a little too dim so I replaced the bulbs using Superbright LEDS, they are about 8 candela whereas the orginal bulbs are about 2 candela. If they are too bright, I can simply dim them on the light switch.

If you can replace the old scratched plastic lens do so, they make everything look so much newer. You can also use plastic polish if you can't get a new one.

[68fastback]

Sweet!! They really look great, Bruce!

[Tommy Gun]

I got the Stang out of the garage to give it the eyeball on the hood install. Obviously a necessary step because I found a number of items that needed attention. In the garage, you really can't see alot because you are too close to your work.

HOOD FITMENT

The front lip of the hood drooped down in the center, making it look like a late model Camaro. Yuk. In addition the hood fit in the front at the edges still looked high.

The front lip is supposed to look level. Using a straight edge on the bottom side, I could see it was nearly an inch low in the middle. Taking a "Sharpie", I marked the center where it needed to be. Using the straight edge, I marked a line where the hood needed to finish and then marked an additional line about an 1/8th inch lower all across the hood. Using a small cut off wheel on a die grinder, I cut the hood all the way across, holding to the second line. Care needs to be taken to hold the cut off wheel as parallel to what would be the ground wtih the hood closed.

The cut came out pretty straight. I finished the opening with 180 grit sand paper on a long board sander, making sure I held it in the same position all time. Finally, I radiused the sharp edge with a sanding sponge.

The hood still fit too high at the juncture of the front of the fender and the headlight surround. It hit on the pointy front edge of the sheet metal grill surrond and I had already thinned the glass hood as much as I dared. I looked the sheet metal over very carefully and there was no room left to adjust the fender, the grille surround or anything else. Finally, in desperation, I literally grabbed the out side pointy corner of the grille surround and turned them inward about half and inch by hand. I was doublefull I could bend them, but I put the grunt on and it worked. I now had the clearance I needed to bring the hood down another quarter inch, just what I needed.

JUNK HOOD PINS

The hood pins I bought were Mr. Gasket with the lynch pin style pins. (Ala GT350). More crap, the second or third time I rotated the torsion spring, they fell off. Complete junk. I ended up having to go to ACE hardware and bought their 3/16 Lynch pins for $3. They work perfectly, too bad Mr. Gasket can't supply a good part. Needless to say, I really try to avoid buying this brand and only did so because it was all I find at the time. This experience just reminded why.


DOOR WINDOWS.

Like most old iron, the door windows worked like crap, the passenger side had finally fallen out of its track. So, I bought new front and rear glass runs, new rollers and whiskers. I put the new parts in the trunk and took it to a local glass shop that I had used for hot rods before. Its a small shop and the Owner really knows the old cars and what a PITA they can be. In the end, the door glass works like brand new, it fits just right and I am really happy I had this done. I did not want to tackle it myself because these cars are really hard to adjust correctly and it took an experienced installer to get it done right. Not that I couldn't have done it, I just wanted it done in before the snow flies again.

NEW ANNOYANCES

Dealing with vintage iron can get really frustrating at times. Before I took it to the glass shop, my fuel guage broke, bummer. On the way home from the glass shop, my speedometer quit working. The fuel guage is electric and the speedometer is mechanical. I had not replaced either of these before, so I guess it was time. Funny how they both broke about the same time. I have a new gauge and a speedometer cable on order, maybe here by the weekend.


WAITING ON OTHER PARTS

I ordered my front coil overs over a month ago from Total Control. I have talked to them a couple times and they are having a parts shortage but said they now had the parts and hoped to have them shipped this week. Well, here it is Friday and I see my credit card had not been charged yet. I guess I can pretty much bet they wont arrive today.

Arrrgh.

I just want to get this car to the painter, get my hood painted and enjoy the car.



They make new Mustangs. :popcorn:

.

[Carnut]

They make new Mustangs. :popcorn:

.

I'm cheap.

[Carnut]

Sweet!! They really look great, Bruce!

Thanks Dan.

[Vette Killer]

I got my new fuel guage yesterday, so I pulled out the cluster and disassembled it. I put the new guage in place and right away I knew that wasn't going to work. The new guage had nice bright lettering and graphics as well as this wonderful red needle. The existing guages and speedometer looked like crap, dingy letters, sun faded needles.

GAUGE RESTORATION TIPS

After 45 years, dust, dirt and sunshine take a toll on auto guages and they look bad. The guages are good otherwise and they can be replaced, but why through away money when you don't need to.

The needles are faded, so repaint them. Most needles are a day-glo or fluorescent red but matching is tough. I went to a hobby store a bought a one ounce bottle of Testors, Fluorescent Red which ended up being the perfect color. The needles are very fragile so I slipped a thin piece of cardboard under the needle and over the guage face. You can then paint the needle in the long direction without bending it or getting paint on the guage face.

The painted letters and graphics on the new guage were a very clean white, the old ones were a dingy white. I used a Q-Tip and a little rubbing alchohol and gently cleaned them. Be carefull you don't rub too long or hard on the white or it will come off. After the white was clean, I continued using more Q-Tips dampened with a little water. It takes a while, but eventually the black gets clean and slightly shiney.

Lastly, clean inside the cluster, clean the turn signal indicator lens and the instrument light lenses, again, using dampened Q-Tips.

I am attaching some pics of the finished product. The new guage is the fuel, the rest I refurbished. It's a little hard to get the glare off the lenses but I think you get the picture (hehe).

One final suggestion, I find the instrument lights are a little too dim so I replaced the bulbs using Superbright LEDS, they are about 8 candela whereas the orginal bulbs are about 2 candela. If they are too bright, I can simply dim them on the light switch.

If you can replace the old scratched plastic lens do so, they make everything look so much newer. You can also use plastic polish if you can't get a new one.


Great job!

Doing a proper resto really is a labour of love...I use Simple Green glass cleaner instead of alcohol and cut it 1 to 1 with distilled water...it seems to lift a lot of grime without having to do much rubbing...I bought a perfume mister for doing this type of thing as it sprays a really fine mist so you don't get any pooling

For the hood alignment I pull the springs first (if doing it when the engine is in...see below), makes it a lot easier to prevent damage to the lip or the fender...which I learned the hard way of course....the other thing you can do with some cars (haven't ever tried on a Stang) is to leave the bolts just snug enough so it won't move without some effort...makes it a lot easier to get right quicker when you can push it into place with it closed....experience tought me to do this when the engine is out and then mark it with chalk from underneath; makes it a breeze when it comes to finding an almost perfect starting point for final install once the engine is back in and then just wash the chalk off :)

[Carnut]

Great job!

Doing a proper resto really is a labour of love...I use Simple Green glass cleaner instead of alcohol and cut it 1 to 1 with distilled water...it seems to lift a lot of grime without having to do much rubbing...I bought a perfume mister for doing this type of thing as it sprays a really fine mist so you don't get any pooling

For the hood alignment I pull the springs first (if doing it when the engine is in...see below), makes it a lot easier to prevent damage to the lip or the fender...which I learned the hard way of course....the other thing you can do with some cars (haven't ever tried on a Stang) is to leave the bolts just snug enough so it won't move without some effort...makes it a lot easier to get right quicker when you can push it into place with it closed....experience tought me to do this when the engine is out and then mark it with chalk from underneath; makes it a breeze when it comes to finding an almost perfect starting point for final install once the engine is back in and then just wash the chalk off :)

I used the defective guage to experiment on before I did the others. I supposed Dawn (my favorite) may have worked well too.

I pulled my springs too, initally and got close. I did need to put the springs back on to get the height right in the back as the springs take the slack out. As far as chips go, I used masking tape around the hood opening to protect the paint. Great idea on aligning the hood with engine out. Unfortunately, I didn't think of it when the engine was out. There were a few times I tried to reach up between the headers. My arms were too short and not skinny enough. I also couldn't see a darn thing.

The snug bolt thing works on Mustangs too, until you move it too far.

Noticed that Total Control finally charge my card for the coil-overs so I assume they must be on the way. Woohoo, I'll finally get to finish that part and align the front end.

[Tommy Gun]

This is taking a long time. :popcorn:

.

[Black Vert SS]

This is taking a long time. :popcorn:

.

Right,
At his age he might not have enough time to finish :waiting2:

[Carnut]

This is taking a long time. :popcorn:

.


Right,
At his age he might not have enough time to finish :waiting2:

Yes it is and maybe not.

:tease2:

[Tommy Gun]

:doh2:

[Carnut]

MORE JUNK PARTS :boink:

When you're dealing with these older cars, new factory parts are usually unavailable and you at the mercy of the aftermarket. A huge chunk of these parts are made in China or other foreign countries. :doh2:

In previous posts, the fuel sending unit caused me nothing but grief and I ended up wasting many hours just on this unit. First it leaked because the manufacture left the locatiing tabs bent down, then I couldn't get enough fuel because the filter used a tiny less than quarter inch hole and the mesh was so tight you couldn't even see daylight through it.:spend:

I finally got it working, used a custom filter set up and after a couple months the fuel guage quit working. I felt it must have been the guage itself so I replaced it a few posts back. No good, either the new guage was bad, the new wiring was bad or the new fuel sender was bad.:ohthedrama:

I had to do a lot research to find out what the resistance should be on the sender and found out it should be about 12 ohms full and 50 ohms empty. I had a full thank of gas so it should have read about 12 ohms, but when I checked it, I got a reading over 40 ohms, and the guage read empty. :reading:

I drained the tank again, which I have gotten pretty expert on. I pulled the sender unit and had my smoking gun. The plastic float had filled with gasoline because it had a pin hole in it. :shock:

So, I paid good money for a part and there was nothing right about it in the end, with the exception of it not shorting out and burning my car down. :mad:

I went downtown to SoCal Speed Shop, knowing the carried some repo Mustang stuff and I wanted to see what I might be purchasing. They had a Blue Oval brand, brass float, proper filter and it looked to be what I needed. The salesman told me that had really good luck with this particular brand and they had dropped others because of the high return rate. They claim they have had almost no returns on the Blue Oval stuff over the last two years that they have been carrying it. It was a few bucks more but who cares if it works.:yes:

So, I just finished installing it and put a 1/3 tank fuel in it. No leaks, the guage read about a 1/3 full, everything seems to work fine. We shall see.:ohyes:

Other than ranting, I'm posting this to let all of you aftermarket part buyers, what you're in store for. Try and buy from a source that carries the better products, and one that you can talk to about quality. Even then, that's no guarantee. :dogpee:

This crap didn't happen this much when you could buy American made or even manufacturer's parts. Don't expect any satisfaction from the internet seller's either, they didn't make it and they are at the mercy of Wing Chow's waranty policy. :sad2:

I will say I have bought a number of Blue Oval products and have been happy with all of them. I will be going out of my way to use that brand in the future. I do disclaim any interest in Blue Oval brand or any of its affiltiates nor is this a paid endorsement of any kind. :no: Blue Oval products are official licenced reproduction parts meeting cetain standards which is intended to help protect the brand name through quality products made by others.

That's it, I'm going to go get a shower and the gasoline smell of me. :toilet:

[Tommy Gun]

:reading:

[68fastback]

...do I smell a gas leak or did Carnut just arrive?

:giggle:

Good insights, nuts!! :tiphat2: ...would love to see this baby some day!!

[Carnut]

COIL OVERS

Finally received my Total Control bolt on coil overs for the front suspension. They sure appear to be a top quality product so I am hoping the installation will go well.

I will have to remove the existing shocks, brackets, spring and existing spring perch as well as the wheel to gain access. I will also have to remove the factory upper spring seat which is spot welded in. A little grinding and repaint the work.

I have a substantial spring compressor should getting the old spring out should go without incident.

Will post up with a few pictures when I get done.

[Black Vert SS]

:popcorn:

[Carnut]

Springs and shocks out, new parts ready to go in. :biggrin:

Done for the day as I had to go work. :sad2:

[CH53Driver]

:waiting2:

[Carnut]

I'm thinking I need to come down with something.

I feel a little feverish.

[The Bone]

I sure enjoy you're stories Nut and I do feel you're pain. I have done the same thing. I would much rather spend a little more on a good part. There is a lot of junk on the market.

[Carnut]

I got all the hard stuff done this morning as I couldn't go to work with the sniffle I had. :no:

Upper reinforce plates have been fitted and installed. The coil overs took me a while to assemble as I had to figure out a way to compress the springs. Coil overs suck. I ended using my press with a couple plates and bearing seperator. :idea:Once the light went on it took me less than 5 minutes total.:wtg:

My old guy back is killing me, time for cookies and milk, then a nice little nap. :sleeping:

I'll finish it up tonight after it cools off a little.

[The Bone]

You know there is a tool for that.

[Carnut]

You know there is a tool for that.

Yeah I know, the cheap ones won't fit and I was too cheap to buy a good one. The press frankly was easier and faster than a good compressor. I took 2 plates stacked on edge, on top of the I placed my bearing seperator tool. I spread the seperator just enough to hold the spring, put the spring and shock in upside down, and gave it couple strokes. Then I slipped the upper seat on, cracked the valve on the pump and walla. I loosened the bearing seperator and the coil over was finished. Like I said, a couple minutes each. No scratching or marring of the parts.

The springs are light, 450 lbs and I needed about a half inch of compression to installed the upper spring seat. Wasn't much danger of me hurting myself.

Anyway, I got everything finished this morning, the nose is down just slightly from the rear. Of course the camber was way off and so was the toe in. Took some shims out of the upper control arms and the camber is center bubble 0 degrees and the toe in is now 1/4 inch. All per factor specs. The car jounces nicely but I have yet to road test and it's just too darn hot for me to want to run around in a non-ac car. I think its already close to 110, whew. It looks like I lost about 1-1/2 inches and have about 6 inches clear under the car, everything is tucked up as tight as I could get it.

[Carnut]

Here are a few pictures of the install, note the new shock caps in the engine bay. BTW, I finished cleaning up the wheelwell after I took the photos.




6190618961886187
http://stangsunited.com/images/misc/pencil.png
http://stangsunited.com/images/misc/pencil.png

[Tommy Gun]

How do you get your little squirrel hands around all those big parts?


Our squirrels can hardly stay on the fence, they fall off all the time. :popcorn:

.

[Carnut]

How do you get your little squirrel hands around all those big parts?

I use genuine Mechanix work gloves.

Our squirrels can hardly stay on the fence, they fall off all the time.

Umm......maybe if they sobered up once in while.

:popcorn:

.

:tease2:

[Tommy Gun]

:tease2:



We do have this one squirrel that has serious issues.

He walks all over the yard really slow.

You can pretty much walk up to him.

I think he is psychotic.

He has fallen off the fence a few times. :nonono:


.

[Carnut]

Well nothing ever seems to be cheap or easy on this car. See post #103

A while back, I ended up replacing the ring and pinion in the rear end, which is a 9 inch. I got the 3rd member from a buddy and during the gear replacement we discovered that the carrier was actually bent, mostly likely from it getting grenaded. As an added insurance, all of the bearings were replaced. As luck would have it, it developed a whine, typical of too much backlash on the gear. Thinking that maybe that was it, I pulled the pinion support bearing housing out because it felt awfully loose at the year and had barely perceptable roughness to it.

Upon inspection of the pinion bearings, the outer races were flaking slightly and they had a very unusual wear pattern on them. One race had an elongated hour glass pattern and the other outer race had a wear pattern that was thicker on one side than the other. The races were fully seated and they had been set up with 12 thousandths backlash and the tooth pattern was good. There are no burrs or dirt behind the race. These are genuine made in the USA Timken bearings so I don't think they are defective and there was no blueing to the metal, so they didn't run out of lubrication.

I think that the pinion housing is out of whack, probably from a severe pinion side load when the gear was grenaded in a past life. The is the only explanation for the flaking and wear pattern that I can think of. As it stands the pinion bearings are shot. I ordered a complete new bearing kit plus a new pinion housing this morning from Currie.

I am going to check the runout on the old pinion housing just to satisfy my curiosity.

I guess my "deal" on the third member wasn't such a deal after all. Oh well, s##t happens, but it is wearing a little thin on this.

Sigh.

[68fastback]

Yeah I know, the cheap ones won't fit and I was too cheap to buy a good one. The press frankly was easier and faster than a good compressor. I took 2 plates stacked on edge, on top of the I placed my bearing seperator tool. I spread the seperator just enough to hold the spring, put the spring and shock in upside down, and gave it couple strokes. Then I slipped the upper seat on, cracked the valve on the pump and walla. I loosened the bearing seperator and the coil over was finished. Like I said, a couple minutes each. No scratching or marring of the parts.

The springs are light, 450 lbs and I needed about a half inch of compression to installed the upper spring seat. Wasn't much danger of me hurting myself.

Anyway, I got everything finished this morning, the nose is down just slightly from the rear. Of course the camber was way off and so was the toe in. Took some shims out of the upper control arms and the camber is center bubble 0 degrees and the toe in is now 1/4 inch. All per factor specs. The car jounces nicely but I have yet to road test and it's just too darn hot for me to want to run around in a non-ac car. I think its already close to 110, whew. It looks like I lost about 1-1/2 inches and have about 6 inches clear under the car, everything is tucked up as tight as I could get it.


Here are a few pictures of the install, note the new shock caps in the engine bay. BTW, I finished cleaning up the wheelwell after I took the photos.




6190618961886187
http://stangsunited.com/images/misc/pencil.png
http://stangsunited.com/images/misc/pencil.png

Looking good, Bruce!! You may find with the rack & pinion that less toe-in is plenty because the geometry is just different than the stock recirculating-ball and pitman arm. Ideally the tie-rods and lower A-arms should be loaded and both their logical chords parallel to the ground (and therefore each other too), but early mustang suspension was anything but 'correct' so who knows? -lol. If it seems a bit twitchy while cruising with 1/4" it's too much toe-in; if it feels like it's wandering/skating, it's too little. I know you know that, just mentioning since the non-stock R&P might change things considerably.

Hope the Currie 9" does the trick!

[Carnut]

Looking good, Bruce!! You may find with the rack & pinion that less toe-in is plenty because the geometry is just different than the stock recirculating-ball and pitman arm. Ideally the tie-rods and lower A-arms should be loaded and both their logical chords parallel to the ground (and therefore each other too), but early mustang suspension was anything but 'correct' so who knows? -lol. If it seems a bit twitchy while cruising with 1/4" it's too much toe-in; if it feels like it's wandering/skating, it's too little. I know you know that, just mentioning since the non-stock R&P might change things considerably.

Hope the Currie 9" does the trick!

Going to give it a little seat time once I get the rear end back together. Once I get some feedback from driving it, I'll probable take it to the alignment shop. They have better stuff than I do. I use string, a tape measure and a laser level. Not the most accurate but it gets it close.

[The Bone]

One of these days all the bugs will be worked out and you will be driving you're dream car.
Sorry to hear about the rear end. That isn't a easy fix.

[Tommy Gun]

:wow2: You're still working on this?


What was wrong w/ it when you started? :popcorn:




:lol:


.

[68fastback]

Going to give it a little seat time once I get the rear end back together. Once I get some feedback from driving it, I'll probable take it to the alignment shop. They have better stuff than I do. I use string, a tape measure and a laser level. Not the most accurate but it gets it close.

Yeah, some seat time and letting everything settle in a bit. On my Quadravan (non-standard suspension) the only way I was able to get it really perfect was a tape, string and a level :rofl3:

[68fastback]

:wow2: You're still working on this?


What was wrong w/ it when you started? :popcorn:




:lol:


.

:spitcopy: ...besides it being old and stock :look: ;-)

[Tommy Gun]

:spitcopy: ...besides it being old and stock :look: ;-)



:hey2: I'm old and stock! :trouble:



.

[68fastback]

:hey2: I'm old and stock! :trouble:



.

:lol: ...time for a restomod then! :biggrin:

[Joe G]

:lol: ...time for a little blue pill restomod then! :biggrin:

CP actually likes the old broken down model. :nonono:

[Tommy Gun]

CP actually likes the old broken down model. :nonono:



She likes Keith ?





:rofl3:

.

[Carnut]

One of these days all the bugs will be worked out and you will be driving you're dream car.
Sorry to hear about the rear end. That isn't a easy fix.

Won't be too bad, the pinion is removeable without disassembling the whole rear end. :spend:


:wow2: You're still working on this?


What was wrong w/ it when you started? :popcorn:




:lol:


.

The previoous owner used it as a track turd. Read back :boink:


Yeah, some seat time and letting everything settle in a bit. On my Quadravan (non-standard suspension) the only way I was able to get it really perfect was a tape, string and a level :rofl3:

Sometimes the old ways work just fine. :grin:


She likes Keith ?

:rofl3:

.

Sorry to hear about that. Perhaps your equipment is faulty.

[Tommy Gun]

:hey2:


.

[Carnut]

:biggrin:

[Tommy Gun]

I made a thread about your cousins today. :look:

.

[Carnut]

:toilet:

[Carnut]

Well nothing ever seems to be cheap or easy on this car. See post #103

A while back, I ended up replacing the ring and pinion in the rear end, which is a 9 inch. I got the 3rd member from a buddy and during the gear replacement we discovered that the carrier was actually bent, mostly likely from it getting grenaded. As an added insurance, all of the bearings were replaced. As luck would have it, it developed a whine, typical of too much backlash on the gear. Thinking that maybe that was it, I pulled the pinion support bearing housing out because it felt awfully loose at the year and had barely perceptable roughness to it.

Upon inspection of the pinion bearings, the outer races were flaking slightly and they had a very unusual wear pattern on them. One race had an elongated hour glass pattern and the other outer race had a wear pattern that was thicker on one side than the other. The races were fully seated and they had been set up with 12 thousandths backlash and the tooth pattern was good. There are no burrs or dirt behind the race. These are genuine made in the USA Timken bearings so I don't think they are defective and there was no blueing to the metal, so they didn't run out of lubrication.

I think that the pinion housing is out of whack, probably from a severe pinion side load when the gear was grenaded in a past life. The is the only explanation for the flaking and wear pattern that I can think of. As it stands the pinion bearings are shot. I ordered a complete new bearing kit plus a new pinion housing this morning from Currie.

I am going to check the runout on the old pinion housing just to satisfy my curiosity.

I guess my "deal" on the third member wasn't such a deal after all. Oh well, s##t happens, but it is wearing a little thin on this.

Sigh.

Finally got my parts from Currie, a new pinion housing, pinion bearings and related parts.

Not too much work, pressed new bearing races into new pinion housing, pressed on new bearings to pinion gear shaft, pressed on seal. Had to add some shims because the bearing preload was too tight as I began the pinion nut torquing process. Added the shims, about .005 retorqued the pinion nut to about 175 ft lbs and had a 15 in lb preload on the bearing. Installed the pinion several times, subtracting shims between the pinion housing and carrier housing until we had about a .010 backlash, removed it again. Finally, painted the ring gear to check the pattern. All was good and we nailed back together for the final time.

Things have been a little slow due to a rotator cup issue in my shoulder. Hurts like hell when I do certain things and overhead work is a dicey operation. Doc put me on anti-inflamatories yesterday with an evalulation in few weeks. Next step is a cordizone shot in the shoulder if the drugs don't help.

I haven't test driven it yet, but likely will later this am.

[68fastback]

:banana: Awesome!

Whys is it that a squirrel can do that properly -lol- but it seems half the dealer service departments around the country can't install gears properly -doh!

Hope your shoulder feels better ...the drug might help ...the shot (if needed) will help more. Overhead is always the worst, it seems, with rotaator cuff injuroes. I've been down that road a few times (both shoulders) and have avoided the next step (surgery) because, given enough time, it always gets better on it's own -- problem is 'enough time' can be 6 months to two years or more ...as long as you don't injure it again during that interval. Hope you have good luck with just the drugs -- take 'er easy, Bruce. At least you have this project tamed now ;-)

[Carnut]

%&^*#&( rearend. The whine is still there, the professionals haven't fixed it. I haven't fixed it. &(*&*(&&&!!

The set up has done six times, not one single time did the noise change in any degree whatsoever. The differential housing including axles and brakes are brand new Currie items, two sets of ring gears from Summit, two sets of complete Timken bearings, a new Currie pinion housing, a new Currie limited slip carrier, 4 gallons of gear lube, 24 ounces of limited slip friction modifiers. Ca-ching ca-ching ca-ching.

It isn't any other part of the powertrain or chassis because these are all new. It isn't tires because the noise does not change on any road surface.

The only parts that remain constant is the case itself and the drain plug. The drain plug certainly can be eliminated. The case was vatted and inspected for cracks. I can't believe I got two sets of faulty gears so that leaves the case as the potential culprit. The case was measured several times as much as a case can be measured in a normal shop. I've written Currie and will be consulting with a few other experts.

Again, the gears printed fine this last time, the backlash was within tolerances. If they weren't, a change in the whine should be evident. And again, the set up was done at least 5 times, by different professionals and once by me. I find it hard to believe one of these attempts wasn't right. While deductive reasoning would say it is the case (because its the only original part), I'm not going to spend anymore friggin' time and money on this until a reasonable professional explaination is offered. Perhaps the case is distorted because it was grenaded in it's past life, WTFKs.

This shouldn't be this hard, it is basic friggin' differential work. I'm afraid until I can find some concrete causes its going to sit. Besides, my shoulders will require someone else to lift the third member out.

Anyone need somebody taken care of; I'm in the mood.

BTW, the new fuel guage and sender worked out perfectly, at a 1/4 tank I have 4 gallons left, at 3/4 tank I have 12 gallons left and full is full. The tank is 16 gallons.

Also the coil overs work super, big change in ride, firmer yet less harsh on the bumps, the right spring rates and shocking are a good thing.

Oh, and one more thing, (*^&^%%$U&*(:banghead:

[Vette Killer]

When is the whine there nut, on accel or decel? Any difference turning one direction or the other? Is there anything in either the rear end/suspension mounting or the rear trans mounting where you could have a bushing "shorted" through a mount that is now metal to metal?

[68fastback]

When is the whine there nut, on accel or decel? Any difference turning one direction or the other? Is there anything in either the rear end/suspension mounting or the rear trans mounting where you could have a bushing "shorted" through a mount that is now metal to metal?


That's what I was thinking too.

If the face pattern is right, it's right. If something is flexing under load (pattern changing under load but obviously not visible then) noise should only be under load then, but I'm betting it's most noticeable on cruise(??) which should be reflecting the face pattern as was observed (i.e no problem) ...unless engine/muffler noise is masking it under load.

Also, some ratios are just noisier than others in a given axle housing, but that's usually more of a slight droning/cyclical-harmonic noise (a function of the ratio itself in that specific housing), not the typical higher-pitched gear 'whine.' Fabricated sheet (vs cast) housings also transmit sound differently, as will various axle mounting hardware, but that wouldn't wouldn't the whine.

What a PITA ...hope you figure it out, Bruce.

---

These are such annoying and relatively common problems that I'm surprised no one has developed a diagnostic tool that maybe clamps onto the housing and records the actual vibration patterns. I'd bet there are relaible and distictive patterns diagnostic of various causes. Then again, maybe shops have no motivation to do that -lol- but I'd bet the OEMs use NVH h/w and s/w tools for related design analysis ...not much help in the garage tho.

[Carnut]

When is the whine there nut, on accel or decel? Any difference turning one direction or the other? Is there anything in either the rear end/suspension mounting or the rear trans mounting where you could have a bushing "shorted" through a mount that is now metal to metal?


That's what I was thinking too.

If the face pattern is right, it's right. If something is flexing under load (pattern changing under load but obviously not visible then) noise should only be under load then, but I'm betting it's most noticeable on cruise(??) which should be reflecting the face pattern as was observed (i.e no problem) ...unless engine/muffler noise is masking it under load.

Also, some ratios are just noisier than others in a given axle housing, but that's usually more of a slight droning/cyclical-harmonic noise (a function of the ratio itself in that specific housing), not the typical higher-pitched gear 'whine.' Fabricated sheet (vs cast) housings also transmit sound differently, as will various axle mounting hardware, but that wouldn't wouldn't the whine.

What a PITA ...hope you figure it out, Bruce.

---

These are such annoying and relatively common problems that I'm surprised no one has developed a diagnostic tool that maybe clamps onto the housing and records the actual vibration patterns. I'd bet there are relaible and distictive patterns diagnostic of various causes. Then again, maybe shops have no motivation to do that -lol- but I'd bet the OEMs use NVH h/w and s/w tools for related design analysis ...not much help in the filed tho.

This is a medium high pitch whine, hard to describe but imagine a medium high pitched, wah-wah-wah noise. It is most noticeable at 45 to 55 mph and at steady state cruise. Apply power or coast and it will nearly disappear. It's a straight line noise a no change if you wiggle the steering wheel. No metal to metal contact on bushings. This is definitely a speed sensitive whine. Road surface makes no difference.

The gear pattern is right when assembled. (again this was done a number of times), but have no way of knowing what is happening with driving. When we pulled the pinion out the last time, the wear pattern on the gears themselves looked to be correct. I have thought and thought about this issue and am beginning to wonder if the gear case could be distorted or even if the bearing cap case in the case has a fracture that was missed during inspection. That could possibly allow the gear set to move during operation but that is a real stretch, the cast iron should just break not flex or one would think so anyway.

The gear ratio is a 3:89. While some ratios will make a bit of noise, this is a pretty loud whine.

[Vette Killer]

This is a medium high pitch whine, hard to describe but imagine a medium high pitched, wah-wah-wah noise. It is most noticeable at 45 to 55 mph and at steady state cruise. Apply power or coast and it will nearly disappear. It's a straight line noise a no change if you wiggle the steering wheel. No metal to metal contact on bushings. This is definitely a speed sensitive whine. Road surface makes no difference.

The gear pattern is right when assembled. (again this was done a number of times), but have no way of knowing what is happening with driving. When we pulled the pinion out the last time, the wear pattern on the gears themselves looked to be correct. I have thought and thought about this issue and am beginning to wonder if the gear case could be distorted or even if the bearing cap case in the case has a fracture that was missed during inspection. That could possibly allow the gear set to move during operation but that is a real stretch, the cast iron should just break not flex or one would think so anyway.

The gear ratio is a 3:89. While some ratios will make a bit of noise, this is a pretty loud whine.


I fought with one similar to this and found there was wear in the slip spline on the trans yoke, not where they usually wear but about 2/3 the way down the contact patch; you couldn't see the step if you looked down the splines from the end of the yoke, had to use a seal pick to find it, was worn like an undercut from the root of the sline but not all the way to the crown (yes, there was a lot of beer and swearing involved trying to find it). Have also seen similar noises come from a hanger bearing (assuming yours is a 1 piece though) and from a yoke that was opened slightly on one ear.

The first thing I would try though is to throw on another set of rear tires (even junkers) just to test it....tires can do some goofy things even on brand new tires that can make you chase all sorts of other issues.

[68fastback]

The wah-wah-wah cyclical nature in a narrow speed range also indicates interaction of more than one component as VK mentioned -- gears with driveline or tires or even an axle or axle bearing. The medium-high pitched cyclical noise seems to indicate gears are involved but may not be the actual cause (harmonics with another component). Could even be intereactig with a wheel that's balanced but physically not 'true.'

[Carnut]

All good things to investigate, while road surface seems to not change the, I'll swap tires just to eliminate it. One pieced drive shaft, slip yoke and tranny changed from first noise observance to last.

I'm willing to try anything at this point. Thanks.

[Carnut]

UPDATE ON DIFFENTIAL HOWLING

Still working on the differential howling.

Did the tire swapping, no change.

Discovered my driveshaft angles were off and added the proper wedge, test drove car, no change.

Decided to pull 3rd member out and things got real strange. Before I pulled it, checked backlash at the pinion, seemed fine. Rotated the pinion through several times, all felt okay. After I put it on the bench, the gears bound up hard in couple of spots, my backlash went away. So I reinstalled it, torqued it to specs and most of the bind went away, still there, but not nearly as severe as it was before.

Pulled it out again and the hard bind came back. Backlash was nearly non existant.

I talked to a number of mechanics with rear end experience, most didn't have a clue. My suspicion of a deformed gear case was beginning to grow because the clues were all there. I checked the physical properties of cast iron which proved that cast iron can deform without cracking (spread between tensile and yield strength). I had a weird pinion bearing wear problem and something had to be sideloading it. The backlash was changing just by torquing and untorquing the ring gear case.

Finally, I got Currie involved and they agreed with my assessment and confirmed that a cast iron case can be deformed if it takes a hard enough hit. I also spoke to another guy that drag raced Mustangs for years. He confirmed my diagonosis too. My orignal carrier was bent to crap indicating a really hard hit.

That being said, I put a new Currie high nodular sportsman gear case on order today. They spent a lot of time with me, kudos.

Once I load the case and reinstall it, I'm hoping my howling gear issue is in the past. I'll be a 9 inch expert before I'm done, probably there now.

[68fastback]

Awesome diagnostic logic, Bruce!! :bow: ...sure hope that does it -- no fun when sheite like this drags on sol ong. Watch out for those rotator cuffs too!

[Tommy Gun]

UPDATE ON DIFFENTIAL HOWLING

Still working on the differential howling.

Did the tire swapping, no change.

Discovered my driveshaft angles were off and added the proper wedge, test drove car, no change.

Decided to pull 3rd member out and things got real strange. Before I pulled it, checked backlash at the pinion, seemed fine. Rotated the pinion through several times, all felt okay. After I put it on the bench, the gears bound up hard in couple of spots, my backlash went away. So I reinstalled it, torqued it to specs and most of the bind went away, still there, but not nearly as severe as it was before.

Pulled it out again and the hard bind came back. Backlash was nearly non existant.

I talked to a number of mechanics with rear end experience, most didn't have a clue. My suspicion of a deformed gear case was beginning to grow because the clues were all there. I checked the physical properties of cast iron which proved that cast iron can deform without cracking (spread between tensile and yield strength). I had a weird pinion bearing wear problem and something had to be sideloading it. The backlash was changing just by torquing and untorquing the ring gear case.

Finally, I got Currie involved and they agreed with my assessment and confirmed that a cast iron case can be deformed if it takes a hard enough hit. I also spoke to another guy that drag raced Mustangs for years. He confirmed my diagonosis too. My orignal carrier was bent to crap indicating a really hard hit.

That being said, I put a new Currie high nodular sportsman gear case on order today. They spent a lot of time with me, kudos.

Once I load the case and reinstall it, I'm hoping my howling gear issue is in the past. I'll be a 9 inch expert before I'm done, probably there now.



:wow2: You know stuff.

[Tommy Gun]

Can you teach me how to add a Torsen TR-2 differential and 31 spline axles to my track car? :waiting2:



LOL

[68fastback]

Can you teach me how to add a Torsen TR-2 differential and 31 spline axles to my track car? :waiting2:



LOL

...no, but maybe he can for a Torsen T2R :look:

:hide: :-)

[Carnut]

Yes :biggrin:

If you are going to spend all this money, you should consider a C clip eliminator. C-clips are the only thing that hold the axles in on an 8.8 rear end. (If you break an axle on the track the wheel and what is left of the axle will come right out. That will be bad.) This involves cutting off and welding on new bearing ends. You would need a shop to do this.

If you're planning on continuing to race this car, I would really suggest biting the bullet and getting a complete 9 inch which would already have the right wheel bearings and housing ends. The 9 inch is a removable carrier design and would make gear changes a little easier too.

Tough choices but you'd be spending a lot of money on the Torsen and the axles. You should also replace the bearings and ring and pinion while you're in there. A new housing would run you about a grand, minimum. You'll be a couple grand into the 8.8 already.

[Black Vert SS]

I concur with Bruce

[rickf73]

I concur with Bruce

Thats alot of concurring. :grin:

[Joe G]

Thats alot of concurring. :grin:

I concur with Rick. :look:

[Carnut]

I concur with myself.

[Joe G]

I concur with myself.

I concur. :uwelcome:

[Joe G]

I concur with myself.

Mrs Carnut not around to concur with? :look:

[Carnut]

She's too busy polishing what she keeps in her purse. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Tommy Gun]

Yes :biggrin:

If you are going to spend all this money, you should consider a C clip eliminator. C-clips are the only thing that hold the axles in on an 8.8 rear end. (If you break an axle on the track the wheel and what is left of the axle will come right out. That will be bad.) This involves cutting off and welding on new bearing ends. You would need a shop to do this.

If you're planning on continuing to race this car, I would really suggest biting the bullet and getting a complete 9 inch which would already have the right wheel bearings and housing ends. The 9 inch is a removable carrier design and would make gear changes a little easier too.

Tough choices but you'd be spending a lot of money on the Torsen and the axles. You should also replace the bearings and ring and pinion while you're in there. A new housing would run you about a grand, minimum. You'll be a couple grand into the 8.8 already.



Al;ready have new gears.


Would love to have the Torsen.

Just thought while I was at it doing the axles.....but I see it doesn't stop....then I should do the c Clip eliminator.....but then the 9 inch....but I still want the Torsen?

Maybe I should price a complete 9 inch diff w/ a Torsen T2R :shades: , 3:73 gears and 31 spline axles ? :look:

.

[Joe G]

I concur with Carnut.

[Tommy Gun]

She's too busy polishing what she keeps in her purse. :rolleyes::rolleyes:



:hey2: This is a family forum! :sherriff:


.

[Tommy Gun]

I concur with Carnut.



:gay:

[Joe G]

:gay:

He is? :wow2:

[Tommy Gun]

Just looked at Currie and they completely skip my SN95 Mustang. :nonono:


.

[Tommy Gun]

Moser has some options, but none available w/ anti-lock brakes?


How would I get rid of that and still pass inspection?


.....back to adding a Torsen and 31 spline axles. :look:

.

[Carnut]

Just looked at Currie and they completely skip my SN95 Mustang. :nonono:


.


Moser has some options, but none available w/ anti-lock brakes?


How would I get rid of that and still pass inspection?


.....back to adding a Torsen and 31 spline axles. :look:

.

I fairly certain they will make a custom housing for your year and application. They may also have a solution for your antilock brakes. All you would need to figure out is your wheel sensors and a reluctor(I think) You can always try calling them, as they are easy to talk to.

If I remember right they have an Explorer rear disc conversion that you should be able to get the axles with a reluctor and you could probably just drill the backing plate for the sensor. Not positive without having one to look at .

You can always get rid of the antilock as I understand most real racers don't even want antilock. Or so I heard.

[Tommy Gun]

I currently have other issues. :banghead:


http://stangsunited.com/showthread.php?4674-Crickets.....why-me

[Carnut]

He is? :wow2:

I was wondering about that. Being afraid of a little bug and all.

[68fastback]

Isn't a 9-inch overkill for TG's track turd tho? I understand the 'bulletproof' merits a 9-inch, but the 8.8 with a Torsen T2R and upgraded axles seems much more appropriate for road racing and should be plenty tough for the track turd, imo. The 8.8 is also a high-pinion design -- more efficient (even without the Torsen) than the high-helix/low-pinion 9-inch, which is, admittedly, super-tough.

[Carnut]

Isn't a 9-inch overkill for TG's track turd tho? I understand the 'bulletproof' merits a 9-inch, but the 8.8 with a Torsen T2R and upgraded axles seems much more appropriate for road racing and should be plenty tough for the track turd, imo. The 8.8 is also a high-pinion design -- more efficient (even without the Torsen) than the high-helix/low-pinion 9-inch, which is, admittedly, super-tough.

The basic advantages to using the 9 is that the 9 is a removeable carrier design making it easier to change gears and doesn't use the C clip to hold the axles in the housing. It gives you more options down the road if track racing gets more serious, such as weight saving aluminum gear cases, bigger bearings etc. And while you certainly can change the axle ends to incorporate the bearings and retainer, there is a larger cost to that as you have to change axles, bearings etc. I am putting the arguement aside on C clip eliminator kits that don't required changing the housing ends as I don't think they work that well.

The suggestion is that for a little more money, you can upgrade to get versatility in the future with the added strength if want to start playing a lot harder. Spend the money now or spend it later, so to speak.

[Tommy Gun]

The track turd is basically where I want it. It is fun where it's at.

I won't be going to further levels w/ the car.

I do like tinkering w/ it though and between seasons upgrading/improving what I can.

Not sure I want to go to all the hassle of a complete swap.

I was looking at near $1500 to get the Torsen and axles installed. Then run the next season til I think of something else to improve next year.....like an Aluminum block naturally aspirated 400 hp motor. :innocent:

.

[Carnut]

The track turd is basically where I want it. It is fun where it's at.

I won't be going to further levels w/ the car.

I do like tinkering w/ it though and between seasons upgrading/improving what I can.

Not sure I want to go to all the hassle of a complete swap.

I was looking at near $1500 to get the Torsen and axles installed. Then run the next season til I think of something else to improve next year.....like an Aluminum block naturally aspirated 400 hp motor. :innocent:

.

Well certainly the 8.8 will work for that purpose. Enjoy.

[Tommy Gun]

I just figured car like the Boss Laguna Seca uses a 8.8 w/ the Torsen, it would be good enough for my purposes.

I'm sure they have much more torque and harder drivers than my car will ever see.

Now back to me doing the install :waiting2:

lol

[Carnut]

I just figured car like the Boss Laguna Seca uses a 8.8 w/ the Torsen, it would be good enough for my purposes.

I'm sure they have much more torque and harder drivers than my car will ever see.

Now back to me doing the install :waiting2:

lol

You'll need a new "on topic" thread.

[Tommy Gun]

:oops:




LOL

[Tommy Gun]

Okay, making one....

[ati]

:sneaking2:

[Tommy Gun]

:gun:
:sneaking2:

[Joe G]

:gun:

Don't shoot ATI!!

He hasn't received his microfiber towels yet!

[Carnut]

Thread clean-up on aisle 6. :mop2:

[The Bone]

UPDATE ON DIFFENTIAL HOWLING

Still working on the differential howling.

Did the tire swapping, no change.

Discovered my driveshaft angles were off and added the proper wedge, test drove car, no change.

Decided to pull 3rd member out and things got real strange. Before I pulled it, checked backlash at the pinion, seemed fine. Rotated the pinion through several times, all felt okay. After I put it on the bench, the gears bound up hard in couple of spots, my backlash went away. So I reinstalled it, torqued it to specs and most of the bind went away, still there, but not nearly as severe as it was before.

Pulled it out again and the hard bind came back. Backlash was nearly non existant.

I talked to a number of mechanics with rear end experience, most didn't have a clue. My suspicion of a deformed gear case was beginning to grow because the clues were all there. I checked the physical properties of cast iron which proved that cast iron can deform without cracking (spread between tensile and yield strength). I had a weird pinion bearing wear problem and something had to be sideloading it. The backlash was changing just by torquing and untorquing the ring gear case.

Finally, I got Currie involved and they agreed with my assessment and confirmed that a cast iron case can be deformed if it takes a hard enough hit. I also spoke to another guy that drag raced Mustangs for years. He confirmed my diagonosis too. My orignal carrier was bent to crap indicating a really hard hit.

That being said, I put a new Currie high nodular sportsman gear case on order today. They spent a lot of time with me, kudos.

Once I load the case and reinstall it, I'm hoping my howling gear issue is in the past. I'll be a 9 inch expert before I'm done, probably there now.
Carnut is turning into a real Ass Man :haha:

[Carnut]

UPDATE

Brand new ring and pinion case arrived last night, box opened, cleaned and ready to load.

Got my fingers crossed.

[CH53Driver]

So is the restomod done yet?:waiting2:

[Carnut]

So is the restomod done yet?:waiting2:

Continuing rear end howl.

See post 324, just received new ring and pinion case.

Beyond that, I am real close to done, fast, real fast.

[Tommy Gun]

http://www.nohomers.net/images/smilies/cricket.gif

[68fastback]

...hope this third umteenth time is a charm!

[Tommy Gun]

...hope this third umteenth time is a charm!


Sorta like HSURB's marriage.

[68fastback]

:spitcopy:

(no rear end jokes, no rear end jokes, no rear....) :giggle:

[Tommy Gun]

This squirrel scurries into a bar.....


.

[Carnut]

Old case stripped. It is definitely distorted across the side bearing caps, probably other places. Think we physically found the problem.

[Tommy Gun]

:wow2: that apparent?

[Carnut]

With a straight edge it becomes visable.

Additionally, the side bearing races had a varying wear pattern on them.

[Joe G]

With a straight edge it becomes visable.

Additionally, the side bearing races had a varying wear pattern on them.

:pics:

[68fastback]

Old case stripped. It is definitely distorted across the side bearing caps, probably other places. Think we physically found the problem.


With a straight edge it becomes visable.

Additionally, the side bearing races had a varying wear pattern on them.

The squirrel knows his nuts pumpkins !! :banana: ;-) So, will likely have to get another third member since that one must have been torqued in a prior grenading episode. Your 'buddy' now owes you dinner, I think :shades: ;-)

[Carnut]

The squirrel knows his nuts pumpkins !! :banana: ;-) So, will likely have to get another third member since that one must have been torqued in a prior grenading episode. Your 'buddy' now owes you dinner, I think :shades: ;-)

Brand new Nodular Sportsman case came Friday, and I think it should be steak. :grin:

[68fastback]

:wtg: ;-)

[Tommy Gun]

Done yet? :waiting2:

[Carnut]

Done yet? :waiting2:

Fine tuning gearset so it is perfect, don't want to do this again.

[Tommy Gun]

By the time you Restomod this Mustang you will have to Restomod your GT500. :faint:



.

[Tommy Gun]

:goodpost:

[Tommy Gun]

.









:tiptoe:

.

[Carnut]

By the time you Restomod this Mustang you will have to Restomod your GT500. :faint:



.

Sounds like I am making more progress on it than your track turd. :boink:

[Tommy Gun]

Too hot to work on anything here. LOL

[Carnut]

The third member just went, torqued it to spec, THERE IS NO BIND. This is where things went bad last time, so I think this validation that the old case was deformed (besides the other clues). Passenger side axle in, driver side giving me a little grief getting things lined up through the little access hole in the axle flange.

Used my transmission jack to get the third member in place, then lined it and shoved it into place. Trying to taking it easy on the rotator cuff so the dang thing will heal

Anyway, its hot, soaking wet from sweating, fingers cramped and out of patience. I'm going to cool off, get some dinner and come out later tonite and finish up hopefully.

Things just go better with a good attitude.

[68fastback]

...hope this time's a charm, Bruce ...carefull on that rotator cuff.

[Carnut]

...hope this time's a charm, Bruce ...carefull on that rotator cuff.

Thanks, I don't know how it couldn't be.

Breaking news, squirrel on watertower, makes loud whining noise, duck everyone, wait its squirrel not a duck, nuk nuk nuk. :silly:

[Tommy Gun]

I thought a rotator cuff was in one's shoulder?

[68fastback]

...it is.

[Tommy Gun]

Oh, didn't catch that there was a problem.

[68fastback]

...it was an old injury from when he was a pup ...when he was jumping from one tree to another ...with a 9" Currie 3rd member under one arm :biggrin:

[Carnut]

:crutch:

[Tommy Gun]

:ohsnap:

[Carnut]

Hallelujah!

DIFFERENTIAL UPDATE

I just took the 66 for a test drive. The gear is finally quiet.

The gear case was severely deformed, leaving a number of experienced gear guys going "really". New readers will have quite a bit of reading back, but in short, I have a 9 inch with a Currie custom housing built to fit the 66 Mustang. The 3rd member was a donor, that I had rebuilt by a large repair shop including a new ring and pinion. I whined from the get go and went back 3 times to be fixed, never was.

I had a buddy, former drag race funny car wrench and drive, who was also certified in drive trains help me through the last several attempts. We replaced the ring and pinion on the fourth attempt, found the carrier was bent and replaced it as well as the ring and pinion gear and all new bearings. Still whined. Check it again and found the pinion bearing races wearing funny. We replaced the pinion support housing and bearings, still whined. The gear spun fine in the car, but bound up on the bench, reinstalled it and fixed the bind somewhat.

Checked around and found no one had heard of a deformed gear case because they all felt it should have cracked to deform like it appeared. Finally decided to replace the case anyway, reinstalled using another set of new bearings. Got everything to spec, printed fine. So I road tested it earlier today and the whine is gone, all is good.

Finally.

Gear cases can severely deform without cracking, regardless of what someone else believes (including some pretty big gear manufacturers).

[CH53Driver]

Great news! :wtg:

[68fastback]

Glad to hear the ordeal of over, Bruce!!! AWESOME!!!

[Tommy Gun]

So this is finally done? :faint:




:rofl3:




:tiptoe:

.

[Carnut]

So this is finally done? :faint:




:rofl3:




:tiptoe:

.

Pretty much, few little things and paint the hood.

[Black Vert SS]

:pics:

[Joe G]

Great news! :wtg:

:iagree:


:wtg:

[Carnut]

Had the front end aligned today.

Took them two hours but it drives like dream now.

Need new front tires though, they're pretty old and I don't trust them. Maybe tomorrow, I'll check Discount Tire, they have a Falken performance tire that will fit for 78.00. Speed rated.

Lots of little piddly stuff, sound deadening this fall as well as painting the hood.

[68fastback]

...Kewl ...I want a ride!! :grin:

[Tommy Gun]

How does a dream drive? :popcorn:

[Carnut]

How does a dream drive? :popcorn:

Dreamy, how else?

[Carnut]

...Kewl ...I want a ride!! :grin:

You're on but you'll need to stop in Phoenix next time you leave the mountains.

[Carnut]

Added new front tires the Mustang this morning. Falken brand.

I was afraid that those old 12 year old tires were too old. Turns out I was right, one of them was developing a blister on the tread. New tire have soft rubber and the sidewalls flex. Immediate ride improvement and they are somewhat sticky. Even speed rated. NOW, it steers like a new car.

[Joe G]

How does a dream drive? :popcorn:

:doh2:

[Tommy Gun]

Added new front tires the Mustang this morning. Falken brand.

I was afraid that those old 12 year old tires were too old. Turns out I was right, one of them was developing a blister on the tread. New tire have soft rubber and the sidewalls flex. Immediate ride improvement and they are somewhat sticky. Even speed rated. NOW, it steers like a new car.



All this work and I just wanna know how the heck a squirrel sees over the steering wheel????? :groan:

.

[Joe G]

All this work and I just wanna know how the heck a squirrel sees over the steering wheel????? :groan:

.

Phone books.

Lots and lots of phone books.








Just like Keith.


:look:












:haha:

[Tommy Gun]

:tiphat2:

[Carnut]

I need some of those real cool stilts. :yes:

[Tommy Gun]

Just watch out for Badcats....



http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv61/fastestshelby2/squirrelcat.jpg

[Carnut]

:shock:

[The Bone]

I didn't know Bob liked cats

[mustang loco]

Great news! :wtg:


:pics:

+1

[68fastback]

Phone books.

Lots and lots of phone books.








Just like Keith.


:look:












:haha:


:wow2: I just have to think it ...and you post it :biggrin:

[Joe G]

:wow2: I just have to think it ...and you post it :biggrin:


:tiphat:


:WeAreSmart:

[68fastback]

:giggle:

[Carnut]

I have been putting the miles on the 66 Mustang, things shaking out pretty good.

I need to go back through the car, over the years much of the original sound deadening material has been removed. While the car feels nice and solid now, I am getting some unwanted noise in the interior. A big area of noise transmission is the area over the rear axle hump. It's shape allows sound to bounce all around under there and the sheet metal acts like a car speaker, transmitting the noise to the inside.

I can undercoat the exterior side which should help, but I need something on the interior side too. Everything I have been reading, suggests sound control mats, a heavy rubbery material that glues to the interior. I guess the theory is density eliminates the vibrating of the metal, hence killing the sound transmission. This stuff is kind of pricey, so I need to be selective where I put it. I was also thinking some of that brush on bedliner might be a good product, especially in the little corners etc.

Too hot to do it now, but soon.

[68fastback]

Dynamat (http://www.dynamat.com/)rules! ;-) ...it's heavy and pricey and much imitated but it's great stuff ...used on virtually every Riddler entry from Foose to Coddington to Trepanier

(...and by the birdman too :biggrin:)

...a young fellow on our road that I recommended it to used it on his 3-door Ranger (whole interior and door panels) because he's into audiofile sound and wanted to really eliminate road noise and tinny resonances ...and the difference was astounding!

[Carnut]

Dynamat (http://www.dynamat.com/)rules! ;-) ...it's heavy and pricey and much imitated but it's great stuff ...used on virtually every Riddler entry from Foose to Coddington to Trepanier

(...and by the birdman too :biggrin:)

...a young fellow on our road that I recommended it to used it on his 3-door Ranger (whole interior and door panels) because he's into audiofile sound and wanted to really eliminate road noise and tinny resonances ...and the difference was astounding!

I'm looking to kill typical mechanical noises and given the fact that I have old guy hearing, I'm looking for less expensive alternates. I've been researching Dynamat products and trying to match up their products with lesser priced stuff. I think what I need is dampers on the doors, and rear quarters as well as a sound barrier on the rear axle hump. Additionally a rubber mat in the trunk area under the other sound insulation and maybe replacing the the firewall insulation. The floor under the carpet has a jute pad.

I also need to do something with that rattley pass through door to the trunk. I'm trying to keep the cost down to about a $100.

[Tommy Gun]

Turn up the radio.

[Tommy Gun]

I dynamatted under my back seat all the way to the back of the truck and it made an incredible difference. :wtg:

It does get pricey though.

You can get different density rubber and foam rubber from local rubber companies that I'm sure are less expensive.

Not sure if you have those in your area.

Ours are rubber and hose companies and they carry different density's of all sort of materials.

..

[68fastback]

I'm looking to kill typical mechanical noises and given the fact that I have old guy hearing, I'm looking for less expensive alternates. I've been researching Dynamat products and trying to match up their products with lesser priced stuff. I think what I need is dampers on the doors, and rear quarters as well as a sound barrier on the rear axle hump. Additionally a rubber mat in the trunk area under the other sound insulation and maybe replacing the the firewall insulation. The floor under the carpet has a jute pad.

I also need to do something with that rattley pass through door to the trunk. I'm trying to keep the cost down to about a $100.

Bruce, this Damplifier (http://www.secondskinaudio.com/vibration-mat/damplifier.php) by Second Skin is cheaper ...aluminbum-backed butyl rubber ...might be able to get enough to do the job for under $100 if you apply it selectively (see video).

[Carnut]

Bruce, this Damplifier (http://www.secondskinaudio.com/vibration-mat/damplifier.php) by Second Skin is cheaper ...aluminbum-backed butyl rubber ...might be able to get enough to do the job for under $100 if you apply it selectively (see video).

Thanks Dan, less than 20 sf. I found this stuff from Fatmat, seems to be the right stuff, 50 sf for $80 including free shipping. http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/fatmat/50.html

Remember, my standard for noise is less than a audiophile.

[68fastback]

:wow2: That's a great deal!!

[Carnut]

:wow2: That's a great deal!!

I should order it before prices go up. :waiting2:

[CH53Driver]

I should order it before prices go up. :waiting2:

I just called Obama. :you'rescrewed:


:look:

[Carnut]

Oh:bummer:

[CH53Driver]

:giggle:

[68fastback]

...yeah, now the prices stay the same ...but Obummer makes the dollar just worth less and less :doh2:

[Tommy Gun]

Is this a political thread? :look:

.

[Joe G]

Is this a political thread? :look:

.

Could be. :look:

[Carnut]

:cop2:

[Joe G]

:yikes:


Scram. It's the cops!


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_doXDap8u4Nc/SxVG-GquLJI/AAAAAAAAAFU/r9K1qEJynwg/s1600/CS9+-+RIOT+POLICE.jpg

[The Bone]

Nice stick carnut

[Carnut]

Nice stick carnut

Yeah, it is.

Oh, you mean the baton :sigh: .:doh2:

[Tommy Gun]

:wow2: I can't tell if you are a pig or a squirrel now?


.

[Carnut]

:cop2:

[ItalianStallion]

glad to hear it all worked out carnut. Did a 9" for my 68 last year with a 3.89 Trutrac 31sp Moser and yes... a new case
finished it off with MT drag slicks. Love it.
My winter project for the 68 will be new a front end with disc brake conversion
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangRearEndParts016.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangRearEndParts012.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangRearParts3.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangPosi007.jpg

[Tommy Gun]

:wtg:

[Carnut]

Nice, you running drum rears?

What is the spring add on, overloads?

What front disc set up you going with?

What size are the MT's, got enough clearance?

[ItalianStallion]

Yes, Running drums on the rear 11" brake--used the big bearing so I can use the 11"
The rear leafs are new, but I wanted to run a 26" tire for the 3.89 sake. The spring assists help raise the rear slightly. Helps on accel at the track, no wrap up
MT Drag slicks are 235/60/15. Got the clearance since I'm using the spring assists. Best $30 bucks I ever spent.
Lots of disc brake conversions out there-SSBC has a great non power setup, I need V8 Spindles though.
Have Magnum 500s out back will get them for the front

[ItalianStallion]

Yes, Running drums on the rear 11" brake--used the big bearing so I can use the 11"
The rear leafs are new, but I wanted to run a 26" tire for the 3.89 sake. The spring assists help raise the rear slightly. Helps on accel at the track, no wrap up
MT Drag slicks are 235/60/15. Got the clearance since I'm using the spring assists. Best $30 bucks I ever spent.
Lots of disc brake conversions out there-SSBC has a great non power setup, I need V8 Spindles though.
Have Magnum 500s out back will get them for the front
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangPosi001.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangRearParts1.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z212/07shelby/1968%20Nugget%20Gold%20Mustang/68MustangPosiRearEnd613003.jpg

[Carnut]

Yes, Running drums on the rear 11" brake--used the big bearing so I can use the 11"
The rear leafs are new, but I wanted to run a 26" tire for the 3.89 sake. The spring assists help raise the rear slightly. Helps on accel at the track, no wrap up
MT Drag slicks are 235/60/15. Got the clearance since I'm using the spring assists. Best $30 bucks I ever spent.
Lots of disc brake conversions out there-SSBC has a great non power setup, I need V8 Spindles though.
Have Magnum 500s out back will get them for the front

Might be able to save yourself quite a bit of money doing the Granada disc brake conversion. Get the complete thing from a junk yard, spindles, rotors, and tie rod ends, should be able to get one for about a hundred bucks, then your into it for new calipers pads and bearings. Just a thought.

[ItalianStallion]

I agree, the Granada set is less expensive. The steering tie rods for the granada are unique to this conversion as is a few other parts. Haven't decided on which way to go.
Sure like your idea of the coil over setup. One hindrance to moving forward with this front end stuff is that I have a
tired and somewhat rusty front frame rail that I should address.
You did it right. I may go the route of putting the car on a spit and do it up right. I have a 429PI is the garage with a FE style big block 4-spd that need to go in the 68.
Met the guys from Classic Mustang in Sullivan MO at ShelbyFest this year, they have a entire front engine bay, from front cowl to the radiator support that would just be able to be welded in. Just cut the entire front out and put this new "box" in.
T
he best bet for future sake is to put it on a spit and do the floor pans and all.
Lots of cash!!


IS

[Carnut]

I agree, the Granada set is less expensive. The steering tie rods for the granada are unique to this conversion as is a few other parts. Haven't decided on which way to go.
Sure like your idea of the coil over setup. One hindrance to moving forward with this front end stuff is that I have a
tired and somewhat rusty front frame rail that I should address.
You did it right. I may go the route of putting the car on a spit and do it up right. I have a 429PI is the garage with a FE style big block 4-spd that need to go in the 68.
Met the guys from Classic Mustang in Sullivan MO at ShelbyFest this year, they have a entire front engine bay, from front cowl to the radiator support that would just be able to be welded in. Just cut the entire front out and put this new "box" in.
T
he best bet for future sake is to put it on a spit and do the floor pans and all.
Lots of cash!!


IS

I've done my share of that over the years. Plasma cutter, cut off wheel and reciprocating saw and lots of sweat. The toughest part is maintaining alignment. I've built fixtures in place under the old car using tube steel and bolted it to the known bolt holes prior to cutting out the old. The new just bolts to the old maintaining proper alignment for welding.

I suppose you will have to flatten the spring towers to get the monster "385" series motor in there. 428 would sure make life simpler since they are about 3 inches narrower and a little lighter I think.

Thats a lot of work, but once its done, you're good forever.

[Tommy Gun]

:reading:

[Carnut]

My sound deadening material came yesterday.

50 sf of material with a little roller and knife for 80 bucks, delivered. I bought it from Fatmat.com and its nearly identical to the big names that cost nearly twice as much. It is a heavy self adhesive mat with a foil back. The idea behind it is it acts as a dampener to keep the sheet metal from acting like a speaker diaphram, which is how we get much of the interior noise in a car.

In the case of my 66 Mustang, every yahoo over the last 45 years removed the sound deadening material if it was in his way.

I'm going to start with the area over the differential hump which is completely devoid of any sound deadening material including undercoating.

The trunk will be next and then remaining areas with the left over material.

[Joe G]

Are you done yet?

:waiting2:

[68fastback]

:spitcopy:

It will make a huge diff, Bruce!! :banana: ...watch out for the sharp edges too

[Tommy Gun]

:wow2: You're car had 45 owners???


No wonder it's taking so long to fix it. :popcorn:

.

[Carnut]

Are you done yet? No!

:waiting2:


:spitcopy:

It will make a huge diff, Bruce!! :banana: ...watch out for the sharp edges too It should, thanks



:wow2: You're car had 45 owners??? What are you talking about Billy?
No wonder it's taking so long to fix it. :popcorn:

.

I'm going to start Saturday morning. Cleaning the surface to allow the adhesive to stick will probably be the most work. Each piece will need to be cut to fit where I am looking to stop sound as well as dampening the sheet metal. Large sheet metal areas that just need dampening will get a large square to kill the vibration. The material is pretty heavy, about a half pound per square foot.

[Black Vert SS]

My sound deadening material came yesterday.

50 sf of material with a little roller and knife for 80 bucks, delivered. I bought it from Fatmat.com and its nearly identical to the big names that cost nearly twice as much. It is a heavy self adhesive mat with a foil back. The idea behind it is it acts as a dampener to keep the sheet metal from acting like a speaker diaphram, which is how we get much of the interior noise in a car.

In the case of my 66 Mustang, every yahoo over the last 45 years removed the sound deadening material if it was in his way.

I'm going to start with the area over the differential hump which is completely devoid of any sound deadening material including undercoating.

The trunk will be next and then remaining areas with the left over material.

I'm Sorry, what did you say the sound was a little dead.

[Tommy Gun]

What are you talking about Billy?


You said in post #446 that you had 45 owners. :popcorn:


Sorta

[Carnut]

You said in post #446 that you had 45 owners. :popcorn:




No, what I said was "every yahoo over the last 45 years". You need to get your hearing checked.

[Carnut]

I'm Sorry, what did you say the sound was a little dead.

What? Speak up.

[Tommy Gun]

No, what I said was "every yahoo over the last 45 years". You need to get your hearing checked.

I'd look, but I don't read back. :look:

[Joe G]

I'd look, but I don't read back. :look::groan:

[Carnut]

I'd look, but I don't read back. :look:

That's why my comment is in quotes so you don't have to read back.

Lazy bastid

[Tommy Gun]

I don't read quotes. :look:

.

[68fastback]

":spitcopy:" :giggle:

[Carnut]

I got a good start on the sound deadening project this weekend. I'm doing it in sections so I don't have too much of the car torn up at one time.

The sound deadening mat I am using is rubbery like sheet with a self adhesive back and a heavy foil facing on it. It has to stick to the metal surfaces so it ads density to the sheet metal to minimize reverberation from the sheet metal.

So I started with back half interior of the car, extending into the trunk area. You have remove the rear seats, all the side panels and all this trim. This exposes the metal floor, the structure of the car and the inside of the rear wheel wells and fender. Then you have to get the surfaces clean enough for the adhesive backing to stick. This part sucks, wire brush, vacuum and wiping it clean. This part is easy on a new car, really takes a lot of time on an older car.

I started applying the material in 12 inch x 18 inch sheets in the large area and used a small roller to get it to fit into contours. Then I started using smaller 6 inch pieces to fit into the smaller areas and tight contours. I was time consuming but not hard. I overlapped the edges on all the sheets.

I still need to finish the side of the wheel wells. Pictures when I get there.

[Joe G]

:wtg:





:pics: ... :waiting:

[68fastback]

It's also going to make a big difference in how much heat will be rejected from the outside ...especially from the road (sicne it's being installed on the floor, etc) ...the foil will act as an effective radiant barrier ...helps squirrels in Phoenix not overheat their nuts. :giggle:

[Carnut]

70217022Here's a couple cell phone pics. Lot more to do.

[Joe G]

Nice pics! :wtg:

[Tommy Gun]

Sheesh, how long does it take to restored a Mustang ????






Lol
.

[Carnut]

Sheesh, how long does it take to restored a Mustang ????

Lol
.

The time varies a lot.

If you're Chip Foose and have a dedicated team of a dozen skilled workers, you can get it done in one episode.

If you're an old squirrel working on it in your spare time and as money permits, it can take a number of years. I started on this car in 2006 it piddled at it until 2009 before I got serious about it. A lot of that time was saving money, buying parts and other prepatory work. When you work all day, the only time available is the weekend. Family and friends take time away on the weekends as well as handyman jobs on the house, time with the wife when she complains she doesn't see you anymore and other time reduces that weekend time significantly.

In the summer, it is just too hot to work on the car, so that takes more time away.

I trust that answers your question.

[The Bone]

You will be amazed at how much noise is generated from just the trunk area. You may not even have to do the front. The carpet will help the front but the trunk is just like a empty beer can

[Carnut]

You will be amazed at how much noise is generated from just the trunk area. You may not even have to do the front. The carpet will help the front but the trunk is just like a empty beer can

You're probably right. There is a jute pad under the carpet in the front as well as firewall insulation. The trunk and over the hump to the rear seats was devoid of anything so that is where I will be doing the most sound control.

I will probably put a square of the sound dampener on the door skins and call it a day.

[Carnut]

:new2:I took the 66 out for a little test drive this morning. I discovered this motor likes a little cooler air than the 100 plus we have been having.

Nice wide 3 lane road, I'm at the light and no one is around. So I hit kind of hard, up in smoke, I lift and roll out to about 30 and hit it again, smoldered the tires, shifted into second (automatic) kept smoldering the tires and started to get a little sideways, its shifts to third and finally gets hooked up. I am running drag radials and had no wheel hop at all

I'm pretty sure it will smoke my Shelby, providing I can keep it hooked up.

What a rush.

[Tommy Gun]

:new2:I took the 66 out for a little test drive this morning. I discovered this motor likes a little cooler air than the 100 plus we have been having.

Nice wide 3 lane road, I'm at the light and no one is around. So I hit kind of hard, up in smoke, I lift and roll out to about 30 and hit it again, smoldered the tires, shifted into second (automatic) kept smoldering the tires and started to get a little sideways, its shifts to third and finally gets hooked up. I am running drag radials and had no wheel hop at all

I'm pretty sure it will smoke my Shelby, providing I can keep it hooked up.

What a rush.


Awesome! :wtg:


Sounds like mine and Badboys normal driving. :giggle:


.

[68fastback]

:new2:I took the 66 out for a little test drive this morning. I discovered this motor likes a little cooler air than the 100 plus we have been having.

Nice wide 3 lane road, I'm at the light and no one is around. So I hit kind of hard, up in smoke, I lift and roll out to about 30 and hit it again, smoldered the tires, shifted into second (automatic) kept smoldering the tires and started to get a little sideways, its shifts to third and finally gets hooked up. I am running drag radials and had no wheel hop at all

I'm pretty sure it will smoke my Shelby, providing I can keep it hooked up.

What a rush.

Awesome! :chirp: Have you had her on a scale yet, Bruce? Any idea what she weighs?

[CH53Driver]

Awesome! :chirp: Have you had her on a scale yet, Bruce? Any idea what she weighs?

If you take all the acorns out of the trunk, probably around 2,800 lbs. :look:

[68fastback]

If you take all the acorns out of the trunk, probably around 2,800 lbs. :look:

...yeah, with the auto I was figuring similar, maybe just a bit more (with just an afternoons' worth of acorns in the trunk -lol). They were pretty light cars.

[Carnut]

Awesome! :chirp: Have you had her on a scale yet, Bruce? Any idea what she weighs?


Factory curb weight was 2440 to 2800 pounds.

Weight reductions include

Aluminum intake and heads 125

Rack and pinion steering 25

Fiber glass hood 25 lbs

Aluminum transmission case instead of cast iron ??

Taking the highest curb weight at 2800 - 175 = 2625 maybe without acorns. Still have to put it on a scale but this should be close.

[68fastback]

...has to be one quick pony!! ...esp at 2,6xx :faint:

[Carnut]

...has to be one quick pony!! ...esp at 2,6xx :faint:

:yes:

[Carnut]

It occured to me that I have a complete new set of all the rear interior panels and trap door with the exception of one small trim piece. I bought this stuff several years ago, thinking I would change it out someday.

Well, duh. I have the car apart doing the sound deadening. I already have these panels out and they look kinda of crappy after 45 years of abuse.

So I found a place on line that carries the one piece I need. I ordered it and got the order confirmation but it is backordered.

I guess I will have to be patient and wait for it. It would be foolish to put it back together with the old stuff.

[68fastback]

Awesome idea! ...yeah, you've waited this long to complete it ...another couple weeks won't matter, Brue. I have to see this baby some time!! :chirp: :banana: ...till then, maybe you or a buddy can shoot a video when she's all ready ...exhaust at idle, some revs, a WOT fly-by!! :banana: ...one of your buds gotta have a goPro or something like that?

[Joe G]

It occured to me that I have a complete new set of all the rear interior panels and trap door with the exception of one small trim piece. I bought this stuff several years ago, thinking I would change it out someday.

Well, duh. I have the car apart doing the sound deadening. I already have these panels out and they look kinda of crappy after 45 years of abuse.

So I found a place on line that carries the one piece I need. I ordered it and got the order confirmation but it is backordered.

I guess I will have to be patient and wait for it. It would be foolish to put it back together with the old stuff.:logical:


Good thing you remembered before putting it all back together. (which would have been my luck :doh2:)

[Carnut]

I almost did forget. I saw them when I was rummaging around the garage for some other stuff.

I'm going to pick up some speaker wire today and run it inside the door sill channel while it is apart along with a couple more spare electrical wires in case I do something in the future. Remote nitrous switch or whatever. Once the interior is back together, I hope to never have to take it out again.

I have also been trying to check the fuel mileage on this beast but with all of the WOT playing its a little tough. Right now I am guessing about 16 or so in town with the WOT jaunts. I'm expecting some pretty good road mileage with the overdrive and lock up converter.

[68fastback]

I almost did forget. I saw them when I was rummaging around the garage for some other stuff.

I'm going to pick up some speaker wire today and run it inside the door sill channel while it is apart along with a couple more spare electrical wires in case I do something in the future. Remote nitrous switch or whatever. Once the interior is back together, I hope to never have to take it out again.

I have also been trying to check the fuel mileage on this beast but with all of the WOT playing its a little tough. Right now I am guessing about 16 or so in town with the WOT jaunts. I'm expecting some pretty good road mileage with the overdrive and lock up converter.

The offficlal Stangs United calibration circuit for 2012 is, quite coincidently, from Phoenix to Pittsburgh :shades: :banana: :grin:

[Shlbylvr]

The offficlal Stangs United calibration circuit for 2012 is, quite coincidently, from Phoenix to Pittsburgh :shades: :banana: :grin:

:goodpost:

[Carnut]

The offficlal Stangs United calibration circuit for 2012 is, quite coincidently, from Phoenix to Pittsburgh :shades: :banana: :grin:

Unfortunately, and as much as would like to, I just couldn't get away for the 4 weeks it would take me. Then there is the 4 weeks back. Im afraid I'll just have to keep it local.

[Carnut]

:new2:

I still have the interior apart, awaiting a trim piece that is back ordered.

While it still apart, I am on a mission to find and fix every rattle and squeak in the interior.

On the 66 Fastback, there are louvers where the back quarter windows go on the new stangs. Attached to the louvers is an air box and door assembly to make this louver truly functional; the allow air extraction from the interior of the car. The doors are supposed to slide and seal when closed.

While checking them, I found they bound up on both sides. Banging on them produced a rattle, so I took the driver side box out and low and behold, there was a stainless steel Z bar laying loose in the bottom of the box. Well, there you are, I found one rattle. The Z bar was identical to the tracks that held the sliding door but this assembly had both of its tracks.

The idiot that had this apart before didn't realize the bottom lip of the panel containing the door is supposed to slip inside the box so it doesn't leak. So instead he gooped it all up with silicone sealant, and screwed it to the outside. This distorted the panel and was part of the binding problem.

So I cleaned up the panel and started to put it back together the same way it was. It didn't work well. There are little metal tabs attached to the sliding door and the previous idiot had engaged the tabs on the lip of the Z bar and they bound up. Upon examining them more closely, I realized the these tabs were an anti rattle spring and they go under the Z bar. I reassembled the door tracks and it works like brand new, nice and smooth, it seals nicely and no rattles. What a moron.

With this side so screwed up, I decide to check out the passenger side box. Same idiot worked on this one, it was glued on with the bottom lip incorrectly installed. The sliding door bound up. So, I took it off and noticed right away why the extra Z bar was in the bottom of the other air box. The bonehead lost it and spot welded some junk Z bar to the sliding door panel. It is not the same size and of course this same bozo engaged the sliding door tabs on the bar.

So, I'm sitting here waiting for 6am before I removed the makeshift track with a die grinder. I least I have the right part to reinstall 'cause the dufus left it in the bottom of the other air box. Once I get this fixed, I'm sure the door will slide as good as the other fixed side.

I know the idiot was the guy who painted the car, because the louvers had to be removed to paint it. Or maybe it was a previous idiot and the last idiot didn't have brains to put it back right. Or even a whole line of idiots over the last 45 years.

It just amazes me, how stupid people can be. I guess I should feel lucky that some idiot didn't spot weld the panels on because he couldn't find the screws.

This is indicative of the type of crap I find on a lot of older cars. What should be another simple job, turns into a major reconstruction project. This is why projects take so long.

7242724072397241

[CH53Driver]

:wtg:

[68fastback]

...nice work, Bruce!! ...all these [not so] little things just make it all better and you'll enjoy it that much more ...eventually ;-)

[Carnut]

I used a die grinder and cut off the offending Z bar and ground the welds smooth. Reassembled the passenger side sliding door correctly and it works like it came from the factory.

While I was in there, I noticed two studs that are supposed to hole the outer louver to the sheet metal. The were just laying there, not engaged to anything. After an hour, I finally threaded them into the louver without having to removed the whole thing.

SO, I think we are rattle proof now in each air box, water shouldn't leak in and the vents work.

Sheesh, you would a thunk someone would take enough pride in their work to do it right the first time.

All done with this part. :crutch:

[68fastback]

:wtg: :banana: :woohoo:

[Tommy Gun]

I guess this is finally done? :faint:








:rofl3:







:tiptoe:

[Carnut]

I finally got the interior back together.

The backordered piece never came and I was tired of waiting for it. The rear panels of a fastback are contoured and sort of flow around the corners, and to keep you from having to read back, I had a set of reproduction panels that I remembered I had and decided to use them putting the car back together.

None of them fit well and I had to make constant adjustments to the brackets and other sheet metal. It was a complete pain the butt. What I failed to do was compare the new trap door (between the rear seat and the trunk) with the old one. I had started the reinstall from the front and worked my way to the back. I had to use the old upper trim piece above the trap door because the re-pop never came.

I went to install the new trap door and it didn't fit at all, it wasn't even close. Thinking that I might have over adjusted the other pieces, I was ready to pull it all out again and start with the trap door and work my way forward. Before I did that, I decided to compare the new part with the old one. It wasn't even close. The new part was nearly and inch narrower and a half inch shorter. It wasn't even square.

I now had a texture problem, the new panels had one texture and it didn't match the older texture. Finally I sprayed the old parts with a wrinkle finish and then sanded it down partly until it approximated the new texture. The gloss still didn't match so I sprayed it with a high gloss clear and the finish finally came close.

I ended up putting it together. It took too many manhours to deal with this repo crap. But it is done and looks okay for now.

I bought some black vinyl and decided to play with it. I found I could stretch it enough to fit all the contours of the old panels which told me covering the old panels with vinyl would have been the best solution to the interior. The old pieces, while they look like crap, fit much better and are stonger.

I intend to to take those old panels, repair them with resin, sand them smooth and cover them with vinyl. Maybe this spring because all I want to do is drive the car for now.

So for those people considered redoing their fast back interior, forget the repop stuff, you pay a lot of money for something that doesn't fit. Recovering is cheaper, it fits, looks nicer and takes a heck of lot less time.

As I side note, I have been putting some miles on the car and it looks like everything is fine now, the mileage is actually pretty good due to the automatic overdrve transmission and the lock up converter. I'm guessing I am getting in the high teens around town. I need to get some stickier rubber on the back, the BFG drag radials just don't cut it.

[Tommy Gun]

So this isn't done? :nonono:




:rofl3:

[Carnut]

Yes and no.

[Tommy Gun]

This sounds like a Mrs. Carnut reply. :nonono:

[The Bone]

Carnut glad is put back together, ya thr repop junk not does it not fit right the craftsmanship isn't very good ether. I got some door handles from Scott Drake the god of mustang parts and the chrom sucks. Most of the time it's better to fix the old stuff

[Tommy Gun]

Having some stuff re-chromed isn't super expensive here, but the closest place is just over 2 hours away. :nonono:

[68fastback]

Thanks for the update, Bruce!! Must be a kick to drive. Hopefully you'll take some pics in and out and around (lol) and post some up for us when you get some time :banana:

Actually, this car sounds like a great cover car for a 5.0M&SF restomod article or the like -- especially as the focus starts to shift to Mustang's 50th anniversary!! ...and those mag editors like to be Phoenix in winter too :biggrin: ...that would be an awesome way to document your baby and a feather in your cap too ...especialy now that it's running right and all the :spend:is sort of over ;-)

[Carnut]

Carnut glad is put back together, ya thr repop junk not does it not fit right the craftsmanship isn't very good ether. I got some door handles from Scott Drake the god of mustang parts and the chrom sucks. Most of the time it's better to fix the old stuff

Our local So-Cal store carries Ford approved repo stuff now, it is better usually than some of the online stuff but the big advantage is you can see the part before buying it.


Having some stuff re-chromed isn't super expensive here, but the closest place is just over 2 hours away. :nonono:

10 minutes away from me.


Thanks for the update, Bruce!! Must be a kick to drive. Hopefully you'll take some pics in and out and around (lol) and post some up for us when you get some time :banana:

Actually, this car sounds like a great cover car for a 5.0M&SF restomod article or the like -- especially as the focus starts to shift to Mustang's 50th anniversary!! ...and those mag editors like to be Phoenix in winter too :biggrin: ...that would be an awesome way to document your baby and a feather in your cap too ...especialy now that it's running right and all the :spend:is sort of over ;-)

Still have to paint the hood, need to save the bucks up.

[68fastback]

Still have to paint the hood, need to save the bucks up.

Should be ready for a major caover feature by next winter ;-) ...when the Mustang mag editors really like to be in Phoenix -lol.

Of course we get to see it here first :grin:

[Carnut]

Well, of course.

[Tommy Gun]

:pics: